Horizons University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by salami89, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    heirophant said: "Students really need to understand the precise nature of what they are enrolling in. This only becomes more difficult when there are different languages involved. This isn't a slam on France. I'm sure that my own United States, with its wide variety of accreditors, rankings and state-approval laws is just as incomprehensible to foreigners who aren't familiar with it."

    On this particular point, we are in full agreement. Students should not assume that a foreign education system will be largely the same as their own. Sadly, I also see some of the signs of this problematic approach on this board. Enrollment without prerequisite research should to be discouraged. As for ASIC, I would agree that it is red flag, but only when an institution relies on their accreditation in an exclusive way. I still follow the "innocent until proven guilty" rule, since I know that some perfectly legitimate institutions have chosen to add the stamp of the British accrediting agency. As things currently stand, it is a recognized British agency, despite some of their troubling history and decisions. It's just that it's original purpose (largely having to do with internal immigration and visa issues) seems to have been lost for the international universities that have joined them. Many universities make it seem like this accreditation carries tremendous weight when that's simply not the case. If international universities simply emphasized how their degrees have been aligned with British immigration standards, the situation would be different. But we don't live in a perfect world.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    No -- it's not just you. Not just you and me, either.
  3. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Can I get in on this?
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    You bet!
  5. mustafa

    mustafa New Member

    Hi Tadj,
    What is the difference between institutional accreditation and programmatic accreditation??.
    I can see that ASIC has accredited the follow areas in EIU:
    A- Premises and Health & Safety
    B- Management and staff resources
    C- Learning and teaching; course delivery
    D- Quality assurance and enhancement
    E- Student Welfare
    G- Marketing and recruitment.

  6. tadj

    tadj Active Member


    Thanks for the inquiry. On the following page, ASIC appears to describe the benefits of international university accreditation; https://www.asicuk.com/university-accreditation/ Quote from their page: "It is probable that your university is already accredited within your own country, however ASIC accreditation confirms your commitment to internationalisation and, in particular, your commitment to supplying exemplary services to international students."

    When they say "it is probable that your university is already accredited within your country", I see this precise thing as the equivalent of institutional accreditation (being accredited within some country). I don't see ASIC as provider of this type of accreditation. That's the job of a specific country's government, perhaps through a Ministry of Higher Education and various quality assurance mechanisms in place (government-approved accrediting agencies, charters, etc.). While they (ASIC) do "assure the public, students, parents and other stakeholders as to the quality of an institution and its commitment to high standards through a system of continuous improvement", the ASIC quality assurance does not replace this country-specific mechanism. Therefore, I don't treat ASIC as an institutional accrediting body within any country (not even the UK with its own system of degree authorization). In France, ASIC isn't even taken into consideration by their Ministry of Education!

    It may be slightly anachronistic to refer to ASIC as a programmatic accrediting body (although I admit to using that term very loosely). Maybe it's best to see it as narrow programmatic accrediting body. It accredits programs of international universities, so that such institutions can show forth their commitment to internationalisation and, in particular, a commitment to supplying exemplary services to international students." You might say it is programmatic accreditation for internationalisation. That's it.

    In France, European International University does not meet the criteria of an institution with portable degrees (degrees that could be taken to another country and evaluated as government-recognized French degrees. They are only allowed to grant professional degrees under a license from the Ministry. So, I would not see it an accredited institution of any kind. In my opinion, it not necessarily a bad thing. However, it is something that must be taken intro consideration, as it could be a source of later frustration when you're trying to get your degree accepted within specific domains. ASIC won't provide the missing accreditation for EIU.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  7. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    I once made an inquiry concerning the status of European Global School with Campus France in Poland. I believe that European International University has the same status in France. I am going to freely translate (from Polish to English) what a coordinator told me in response, as it may shed light on EIU:

    "Thank you for your inquiry, Sir. As you rightly noticed, European Global School is a French private institution. While it is recognized by the French Ministry, it does not have (on it's own) the right to grant Bachelor's, Master's, or Doctorate titles." These type of institutions can grant degrees in cooperation with French public institutions of higher education, or provide them under the authorization of local authorities that monitor the granting of degree titles. Before choosing a program at European Global School, you need to first send an inquiry to the recruiter at the school and ask the following question: Will the diploma given at the end of the program be "reconnu"? Such diplomas are then recognized in Poland. The coordinator of Campus France in Poland"

    I wish they could determine such things (whether it is "reconnu") on their own, but that gives you a sense of what is recognized as a portable (accredited) French degree. I don't see the evidence that EIU qualifies here.
  8. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    ASIC is an institutional accreditor, and there's nothing magical about accreditation that it must be done by government or an organization approved by government. Indeed, in the U.S. institutional accreditation long predates federal involvement in oversight of higher education.

    (Now, if you want to argue against giving any weight to ASIC accreditation, that's your prerogative and you'll have a lot of company around here. But that's not the same thing.)
  9. tadj

    tadj Active Member


    I guess that I don't really have anything against using the term "institutional accreditation" in reference to ASIC, but it may be misleading to certain forum members who associate that with an institution's full recognition by the government as a degree-granting institution and portability. This is the sense in which I generally take it. But I do recognize different meanings of it, Steve. I agree with you.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  10. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    I actually give weight to ASIC. Take a look at my other posts. I just associate it with things like; internationalisation and good student experience assurance. Their accreditation serves those types of purposes for me. Other forum members have dismissed it entirely and see it as a red flag.
  11. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    Oh, EGS University: the school has a thread of its own here, see

    A few acquaintances over there, like Professor Hubert Rampersad (Technological University of the Americas, Personal Branding University) but Professor Dr Ian Mackechnie (Greeenwich University, Golden State University and, more recently, Charisma University) is no longer in the list of faculty members. He used to be, though, see https://web.archive.org/web/20180828203334/http:/egs.education/?page=deans-faculty

    A little over a year ago, EGS was accredited by ASIC: https://web.archive.org/web/20180828191958/http:/egs.education/?page=recognition-accreditations

    I had a look at EGS's Facebook page, and apparently, Robert Ray Hill likes EGS. Robert Ray Hill was the US representative of WIDU, the World Information Distributed University in Moscow, a Professor at the American University of London and West Coast University Panama, and a graduate of Robert de Sorbon and IUFS, the International University of Fundamental Studies, Russia.

    It seems Professor Hill has relocated to the Philippines and been ordained as a bishop by the Global Word Fellowship Church. That's Frank T Bozeman's (he is also founder of the unrecognized Global Evangelical Accrediting Commission) church.
    Johann likes this.
  12. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    While I consider EIU innocent until proven guilty, I am very suspicious when it comes to European Global School for a number of reasons. I've never been able to get any responses from the school. Secondly, I know that their students have attempted to locate the school in Paris without any success. Thirdly, EGS has partnered with some true scam artists in New Zealand, and possibly elsewhere. For example, they offered their degrees in partnership with this college (their website has been taken down by the authorities in New Zeeland); https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/10/04/841748/the-invisible-college-that-wants-your-cash (in the photo in the article, you can still see their main page with the EGS-Paris joint partner degree connection).
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  13. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    The president of the European International University is one Dr Edward Roy Krishnan, a Malaysian of Indian origin residing in Thailand. Apparently, EIU's Corporate Strategy and Operations Headquarters are not in France, but in Thailand, so ASIC's full inspection of the school was conducted in Thailand, not in France: https://eiu.ac/2018/07/19/quality-assurance-our-priority/

    European Global School is operating out of a Regus virtual office in Paris, but I assume EIU's expert advisor in international business law, Dr Oliver Massman, would be able to tell where the school is located, since his PhD in International Business Law is from EGS, https://eiu.ac/our_team/dr-oliver-massman/
    tadj likes this.
  14. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    Are you implicitly saying that you're just as skeptical about this school as EGS? You may be right. I still like the fact that EIU honestly responds to inquiries (unlike EGS which has never responded to a single inquiry that I've sent) and has set up an office in Paris to which they invite their students, even if their strategy and operations headquarters are in Thailand. As for the faculty credentials, I am assuming that the mentioned faculty member received his degree through one of the countless EGS partnerships. It is possible that these local branches provide a somewhat better service in terms of responding to student information requests. It is interesting that Thailand is the main operations headquarters for EIU though, as EGS also had partners in that specific country. Time will tell whether this is an honest (though non-accredited) business school, or a scam operation of some sort.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    My, my. And here I thought the days of good old round robin verbal fisticuffs on Degreeinfo were past! This whole thread reminds me of K-W, a school for which I retain some sentimental affection, since it was this site that kept me from enrolling there.
    tadj likes this.
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Well there's lots of references to Kennedy-Western on this board. Here's a thread that was started in 2001 and was still getting attention over a dozen years later.

  17. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    Let me put it this way: I've been following ASIC from the beginning, when they accredited Marcel Okechukwu Ezenwoye's Concepts College (at 40 Thorne Road in Stockwell, no less) and Sir Nasser Heydarian's Trans-Atlantic College. Ambassador Professor Dr etc Marcel Eze is an Igbo guy from Nigeria and a World Information Distributed University (Moscow, Russia) Grand PhD, whereas Sir Heydarian holds a Grand PhD from World Information etc sister university the International University of Fundamental Studies in St Petersburg, Russia. He was also, and may still be for all I know, a member of the government of the entirely fictitious micro-nation called the Dominion of Melchizedek. I think, but Dr Bear can correct me if I'm wrong, that there was even a University of Melchizedek for a while, with Sheila Danzig as Vice-Chancellor.

    So basically, whenever there's a new school listed in ASIC's International directory, I check it out to see if any of the usual suspects in terms of individuals and schools show up. They do, quite frequently, and EIU's president is, it seems, a graduate of the Open International University for Complementary Medicines in Colombo, Sri Lanka.
    tadj likes this.
  18. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    I think that there is a genuine problem with ASIC's accreditation decisions, at least with regard to a number of former and present-day international university members. Right now, the ASIC accredited U.S. religious-exempt schools are a cause for special concern. I respect the fact that they are a legitimate accrediting agency in the UK. For this reason, I do give minimal weight to their decisions. At the same time, I don't really see the benefits associated with achieving ASIC accreditation aside from the aforementioned internationalization and external student experience checks for international schools. It's interesting that they are only an affiliate member of the European Network for Quality Assurance in Higher Education. This status means that they are a "bona fide accrediting agency with a demonstrable interest in the quality assurance of higher education." Therefore, I am not going to necessarily treat it as a red flag. However, I am not convinced about the substantial accreditation benefits at this point. As for EIU, the faculty credentials are a mixed bag with some authentic degree achievements alongside lesser qualifications. I would be more interested in the quality of the MBA course material.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  19. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Tadj, there is an old expression: "There's no such thing as ten percent pregnant."

    I cannot see how you can keep on saying about ASIC, "I like them, but . . ." Or, "I don't like them, but . . ."

    If there is anything remarkably negative about them (and there clearly is), they should be flushed down the crapper for good.
  20. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    I get your point, Steve. I try to take a balanced approach to ASIC. On the one hand, I am trying to avoid the "fake accrediting agency" label. I want to grant the possibility that the approved British agency could provide tiny benefits to their members. On the other hand, I am cautious about extolling the benefits associated with ASIC accreditation, since I really don't see anything truly significant on the radar. An institutional immigration check does not cut it for me in terms of substantial benefits. It may look like I am wavering. However, I am just trying to be careful in my assessment. The other thing is that I am more tolerant of non-accredited licensed schools than many of the online forum members. I believe that better licensed schools could potentially provide a supplementary form of education to students who already hold degrees from accredited institutions. At the same, I am not generally supportive of licensed school doctorate degree attainment for a different set of reasons. However, I could see why someone might want to supplement his education with a state-licensed MBA, or a degree in some non-regulated field. Personally, I have not explored that route. That said, the path of action does not really bother me, as long as the school provides a genuine educational experience as opposed to an arranged cash-degree exchange. That's always more difficult to figure out with licensed schools. Hence, the discussion...
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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