DETC Doctorate program accreditation

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Lerner, May 22, 2011.

  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Sure, but wouldn't a certification or a graduate certificate accomplish this? If I was jobless and wanted an entry level accounting job, I believe a CPA would cost less and be faster to get than a DBA in Accounting from a DETC school (think there is none yet but assuming there is one).

    People that get DBAs are normally motivated to get the title doctor that might help to get credibility in some fields like consulting. Lets say I am CPA and want to market myself as a Doctor so the DBA on top of the CPA might help to get customers because of the Dr title.

    I believe this type of degree will not fly for long. As people realize that this are more like a vanity degrees, they will stop putting money into these degrees and use it in something of more value.
  2. Randy Kearns

    Randy Kearns Member

    If the aim is credibility of a given degree from a given institution how does the argument square with a doctorate from the UoP's and Northcentrals of the world (not to be confused with North Central) , etc? I'll certainly agree that the general premise is RA is viewed as superior to NA. To me, the key is learning and in the process, awarded for your efforts with a degree from a degree granting institution that in the case of the DETC which is a federally approved accreditation agency.
    Maybe a future Nobel Laureate will have a PhD from one of the UoPs of the world but I’d say it’s unlikely. If value and validation to you (the generic potential student) only requires one litmus test and that is RA versus NA then I’d stay away from the DETC schools. On the other hand, if the aim is learning and a learning environment through only distance education, then the NA schools may be just as attractive as the RA schools and far less expensive.
    My advice is to stick with schools that have existed for more than 20 years, a bricks and mortar component, where real people sit in real classes and learn from real professors. The campus is not just a bookstore, accounting and a check clearinghouse location. I’d also prefer the school is not for profit or state/gvmt based ownership and a cost that you can afford. I’d also suggest it have the RA seal of approval and for a doctorate has produced meaningful scholarship in at least one discipline. If you can’t find a school that meets all of those criteria, what drops off your list?
    DETC generally won’t give you many of those things but neither will many of the new universities that you find advertising in many of the trade magazines. I doubt you’ll find a Harvard-like education at a DETC school but I know you will find a Harvard-like tuition bill from the UoPs of the world.
    I have is friends with $80,000 to 95,000 in student debt from the UoPs of the world so they could earn a doctorate that won’t get them in the door for an interview at most universities. So, tell me once more how that $25,000 DETC doctorate is so much more inferior to that RA doctorate from schools that can boast of the RA status but little else . . . .
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately or fortunately (for some people), UoP DMs and DBAs actually help some people. I have seen several people with UoP doctorates with full time faculty positions here in Canada and some places in the US and Latin America.

    UoP is at the bottom of the scale but satisfies the minimum requirements for many positions as it is RA. It might be overpriced, low quality, etc but it provides more value than a DETC degree even if the quality is lower than any of the DETC doctorates.

    A DETC doctorate is still a legal degree just that has many limitations. I would rather a second Masters from a credible institution if my goal was to show expertise in a second area.

    I believe some people do the DETC doctorate mainly for self improvement and some might be happy to use it to teach as adjuncts at DETC schools. You also have people working as full time faculty at community college or professional adjuncts that just need the title Dr so their students can give them some respect.

    I also see people from overseas countries taking this degree where a doctorate from a US school might be worth something even if it is only DETC.

    There is market for this type of degree but just but very small.
  4. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    In-resident B&M classroom connections are good, but they're not all their cracked up to be, unless maybe you're going to Princeton or Harvard, but even then, it may not help your career, although it may be richly rewarding from a social perspective.

    Nova (in Florida) was once a non-traditional new university, but now they're 20 years old with a B&M campus. I got a doctoral degree from NCU when they had no campus, but now they do, although no classes are given there. If they give classes there in the future, then will they be in the same category as Nova?

    I recently signed up for another in-resident MA program and the class lectures are sooooo boring and I'm frankly not learning anything, although the classroom connections with other students is rewarding. However, 99% of what I'm learning involves the at-home assignments, which reminds me that online learning is an excellent modality for self-motivated people.
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You seem to be saying that distance learning and instructors who teach online aren't real, which is both obnoxious and falsifiable.
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I think what Randy is referring to is that professors at B&M schools are required to do research, are committed full time to education, hold degrees that required may years of work and extensive research etc.

    The new breed of online instructors from schools like the UoP have a different profile. Many have degrees from the same type of online institutions, don't do research, get paid very little so commitment is minimum, etc.

    Now, we cannot put all the online instructors in one basket as credible institutions like Stanford U offer online classes.

    The delivery method is irrelevant and the quality of the institution offering the course is what it matters the most. A course from the UoP given on ground would suffer from the same issues than online courses because instructors have the same profile of being low paid professionals, no research, etc.
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Then he could have said that rather than use a loaded word like "real".

    Research is wildly overrated as an indicator of quality of instruction. In fact, those of who who actually work in our fields have much to offer students that those in the ivory tower can't match. And as an adjunct, I resent your implication that our commitment is necessarily closely correlated with our pay. I may teach for what amounts to beer money, but my students get what I can give them because I'm not motivated to teach solely for money.

    Sorry, but after I unpack all the snobbery from this, I see nothing left.
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    You call me snob, I call you snob also. You think because you have some work experience are better than someone that has dedicated years to research and study?
    If this was the case, why AACSB would put so much emphasis in research if this carries little value? Why would people will be willing to pay a lot more for schools with AACSB accreditation if snob professors are just collecting high pay checks and adding no value to a school?

    You might be a great teacher and willing to work for peanuts just for the pleasure of being one but most people will put little time into something if they get pay little, a school cannot ask for much of they pay little too.

    If payment wouldn't have an impact in the quality of teaching, why is that top ranked schools happen to have also the highest pay for their faculty? It is not a secret that if you want the best you have to pay for it.
  9. AdjunctInstructor

    AdjunctInstructor New Member

    In my own experience as a student dating back to the mid seventies and as an educator a few years I have seen "the good the bad and the ugly" and it has not been that big of a difference. However, in research courses such as qualitative or quantitative methods and dissertation stuff the regionally accredited brick and mortar graduated professor would logically be the professor I would chose.
  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Do I think that practitioners as a category make for better instructors than academic researchers? It depends on the field. In some fields, absolutely. In others... no, probably not. You mention AACSB, but they're specifically focused on research, just as ACBSP is on teaching, so of course that's what they value. Perhaps a better question is how much academic research in business fields is read by C-level executives. I expect not a lot.
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    You have support for these assertions, of course, right?

    You have support for the "bottom of the scale" and "low quality," right?

    "Overpriced" is a value judgment, of course. On what do you base this assertion?
  12. Randy Kearns

    Randy Kearns Member

    In a word; no.
    That's neither what I said nor what I seem to have said.
    I'm saying that the B/M presence is a way to help validate your university has less of a chance to one day be featured on 60 minutes in a not so favorable piece. In the 80's and early 90's several "schools" existed that had great sounding names, Kennedy Western as an example where a real building existed, required real work for real money and left the students with little to show for it . . .a building in California with a forwarding address from Wyoming or something of that affect.
    My point is this; there are lots of good colleges and universities around the country where technology allows a professor to reach a student or a class around the world and for some who either cannot physically attend the class due to distance, or time, or they just learn more effectively on an individual basis, the DL approach is a great option.
    However, to the potential student who decides on a school that is 1000 miles from where you live, and they have a great commercial or a slick advertising mailer, or because a large stadium bears their name (purchased the naming rights) ... well, I'm saying there are better options that will pay off for you and your career if academia is your quest.
    The UoPs of the world have opened the door of education to lots of people and while I recognize that contribution I also have friends who have six figure student loans for those degrees and can't get an interview beyond several of the local community colleges. I've taught programs for more than 30 community colleges in the past 30 years, in residence and through DL and could have been paid just as well for a DETC doctorate at the community college level that would have cost me $75,000 less than a RA doctorate from one of the UoP's of the world.
    To that I'll stick with the point that the DETC doctorate for some is a way to validate learning associated with a program of study for far less investment. It may have more of the weighted value of a RA masters degree but the key is what do you need, what do you want to do with it and what can you afford? And by the way, that is done in the DL environment so I'm still puzzled by the DL quip.
    Anyway, if RA is your minimum standard, but DL is your best or only option, there are choices that I suggest will offer more value. While some may think I'm showing some of that academic snobbery, I'm merely trying to point out the obvious. With time, it may change, but are you willing to invest 100k and 5-8 years of your life and your best chance at breaking into one of those universities is to hope it does change?

    Oh well, enough said, as you can tell I've been around here a long time. However, I am not a frequent contributor and I'm sure there are those with far more expertise here than I who either have or will weigh in on this topic. So, I'll thank you for your time and remind you that my opinion is just that, and as such I respect your's as well regardless of how/if we agree or do not! Take care.
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Fair enough, although you have to admit the word "real" is pretty loaded.

    Well, when you put it that way, that's a lot easier to get behind. Occasionally campus-based schools also turn out to be not what they're supposed to be -- the recent Tri-Valley University debacle is an example -- but I expect the vast majority of examples of unwonderfulness would be fake distance learning.

    Anyway, I agree with everything else you said.
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    With the operative word here being "fake."
  15. truckie270

    truckie270 New Member

    I seem to like car analogies when discussing the value of DETC doctorates, so here is another one:

    You can buy a HUMVEE (DETC Doctorate) if you want - its your money and honestly why should I care? But just don't complain about the cost of fuel, the fact that you can only park in certain spots, or a lack of versatility in your choice.

    And finally, at the end of the day, remember when you drive down the street there is a significant number of people laughing at you because your vanity and need to overcompensate for some inadequacy led you to make a poor choice.
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That last one is way over the top.
  17. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    " Originally Posted by truckie270"

    "And finally, at the end of the day, remember when you drive down the street there is a significant number of people laughing at you because your vanity and need to overcompensate for some inadequacy led you to make a poor choice."


    "That last one is way over the top."


    I gotta agree with you on that one. People laughing at someone because they pursued an accredited degree? Ah, ok. This is simply a non sequitor. A PhD from Harvard is going to laugh at a PhD from UOP. So what. It is up to the owner of any degree to set himself apart, regardless of where he graduated from.

    Nuf said, or bastante dicho.

    Have a good one LA!

    Abner :smile:
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2012
  18. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I just took it as the point where the analogy between getting a doctorate from a DETC accredited school and driving a hummer crumbled.
  20. truckie270

    truckie270 New Member

    You don't laugh at people who drive Hummers? You must not care about the Polar Bears.

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