DETC Doctorate program accreditation

I am not sure what your point of posting the same thing twice is, but OK - I will bite.

In the very first thread, the DPA (Doctor of Public Admin.) is listed as being part of the purview of the DETC. I am active in the field - I read the literature, belong to professional associations, attend conferences, etc. The field as a whole (not just the academics) are very cogniscent of the credentials of those who are notable in the field. Anything other than an RA Doctorate degree is viewed as a non-legitimate Doctorate by those who care about the credential.

As the number of Doctorates expand in those fields you noted, those who have completed RA degrees will make the distinctions among their peers about their degrees being superior. It is really not hard to imagine the conversations in the teachers lounges several years from now - "Sue just got her Doctorate!" - "Yeah but she got it a DETC school!" You already hear that now among those who compare RA schools in the profit/non-profit categories or B&M v. online degrees.

As for the military, I have some solid information from a source I consider highly reliable that accreditations will become much more scrutinized when it comes to tuition assistance and using degrees for rank advancement. With the attention being paid accreditations at the legislative level, would anyone care to make a wager that accreditations will become a factor in the military?

The only place where I see DETC being a valid option is at the undergrad level and in some graduate programs. DETC Doctorates have been traditionally developed to fill a specialized need that RA degrees/school did not address. As RA schools continue to expand their offerings in DPA, DBA, DSc, etc. programs, the choice to pursue NA offerings in these areas when RA options exist is going to become an increasingly poor one.

 

I think that most would agree that a doctorate has little ROI for industrial jobs as most positions won't require a doctorate and the few they do call for doctorates from prestigious schools. I know this as I have few friends that went into finance because their doctorates making insane amounts of money but these jobs call for PhDs from top US schools not even 2nd or 3rd tier would cut it.
Most have agreed that online doctorates provide better ROIs when used for online adjunct positions and this is where a DETC doctorate falls short. One can argue that it can be used to teach at DETC schools but my guess is that even these schools would prefer people RA Doctorates.

Some mentioned that these DETC doctorates are not a walk in the park and demand a similar amount of work than low tier doctorates from online RA schools so I believe that the money saved in tuition does not justify the lower utility of these degrees.

I guess that DETC doctorates would have their market but I must agree with Truckie that it makes little sense to pursue them given the vast amount of RA options available.

 

I hesitate to wade in, but I actually find the DSc. in Computer Science from Aspen extremely interesting. Aspen says they require a master's degree--I didn't see anything about a subject-relevant master's. With my forthcoming MBA, I could apply (I've always loved CS).

When speaking of the utility of a doctorate, aren't we splitting hairs in saying that a DETC doctorate is somehow worth less than an RA doctorate? Neither seems to be a particularly wonderful choice, speaking from a purely financial perspective.

The consensus appears to be that DL doctorates (even RA) have less utility than traditional B&M doctorates. So, there is a gradation of value; I think that gradation of value can help us in exploring this controversy:

If we start at the top, there are traditional B&M, RA doctorates. These have tremendous value in academic and other settings, at least relative to other doctorates. That value comes at a fairly large direct and indirect (opportunity) cost, however. There is also a very significant risk that a candidate will not finish the degree.

Then we have DL/hybrid, RA doctorates. These have somewhat less value, but may involve less financial cost (not always!) and usually will involve less indirect cost. There is also a significant risk that a candidate will not finish the degree.

Somewhere further down, we find DETC doctorates. These have less value, at least according to current consensus. Apparently, we can be most certain that this is the case in academic employment. Concurrently, these doctorates also have extremely reduced financial and opportunity costs relative to RA-flavored doctorates. There does seem to be some consensus, on the other hand, that DETC doctorate programs are more interested in graduating students, and perhaps less interested in extended academic hazing rituals.

It comes down to individual goals and purposes, I think. For my purposes, I've seen nothing remotely suggestive of Aspen's program being anything but rigorous and extremely valuable from a learning perspective. I have no interest in winning some kind of "my credential is better than yours" contest. Achieving mastery of the topic would be more valuable for me than being able to call myself Dr., but both combined is somewhat interesting.

Tom

 

Good post Tom. This conversation is a continual one around here that seems to pop up with a different scenario, program, profession, etc. Many times those who advocate for the NA Doctorate bring up the fact that it serves a purpose for those who do not want to teach. If we are talking about the financial aspects, unless one is getting a Doctorate in a field other than teaching that requires a Doctorate (which RFValve correctly notes those fields are highly competitive with only top-tier Doctorates meeting the requirement), there are really no other fields where getting a Doctorate other than teaching make financial sense.

 

Agreed, but the topic of academic equivalence was never raised nor does it really matter too much when discussing the acceptance of the degree in the RA v. NA context.

I also agree there is some market potential with an NA doctorate, but with the increase in the number of RA Doctoral programs the number of RA doctorates will eventually overpower the number of NA ones and crowd them out of these emerging markets. I am personnally considering moving to or spending a large part of the year in a foreign country when I retire - I am sure that I will not be the only one with this thought, a RA Doctorate, and some time on my hands.

This is the same phenomenon that has occurred in many of the situations we discuss around here. Adjunct faculty – there was a time when an MA was enough to land a teaching job, but the economy and the number of PhD holders willing accept work that they previously would not has made it harder for the MA holder to find openings. Or, the BA used to be viewed as a desirable, but not required qualification. The increase in the number of BA holders has given the employer the ability to require higher levels of education based on supply making it a required qualification.

 

Ditto.


Abner

 

Great points Tom!!!!!!!! also, you are correct, Aspen is a great school.

Abner

 

IMO, it's not a matter of quality. I'm sure that many of the nationally-accredited schools offer solid programs.

However, it is a matter of recognition. In some contexts, it could work. Ministry comes to mind. In congregationally-based denominations, a nationally accredited D.Min. might provide a great opportunity for a pastor to refine pastoral skills, etc. without spending an inordinate amount of money. D.Min. degrees (even Regionally and ATS-accredited ones) don't generally open doors for teaching, anyway. Churches tend to value the doctoral-level credential.

This is industry-specific, however. In the realm of business, a doctorate's utility isn't as clear. A non-RA doctorate is even more hazy. In higher education, it's nearly pointless to get a non-RA degree. Even RA degrees earned online are of limited usefulness. In K-12 education, a lot depends on the state requirements. In my state, Tennessee, only regionally-accredited degrees are recognized for teacher/principal/superintendent credentialing.

A bigger issue for me is cost and time. I would never pursue an Ed.D or PhD from a non-RA school because I would not want to spend money or time on a degree that didn't open doors in my field. If I ever get back into a ministry position, I would consider non-RA credentials then.

 

Higher tiered equals more work for doctorate? Come on!

RFValve you wrote, "Some mentioned that these DETC doctorates are not a walk in the park and demand a similar amount of work than low tier doctorates from online RA schools"

I do not believe that a lowered tier schools demand a lower amount of work our quality. There is variation across the spectrum of schools. Your argument might have validity concerning NA/RA but even then there is a variation. One can be assured if the school is accredited by DETC, TRACS or any another recognized accrediting body, the doctorate required a huge amount of work. It is assumptions, such as your, that are wrong. Your statement cannot be supported by any evidence. Basically you are claiming that lower tiered = less rigor--- I say you are putting out nothing more than your own assumption.

 

jts,
I agree.

 

That is exactly my point, if a DETC doctorate demands at least the same amount of work that a RA accredited Doctorate but with a lower level of acceptability, why would you want want one? The price might be the first that comes to my mind but the difference of cost in my opinion does not justify the lower level of utility.

As for metrics about the level of rigour of doctorates in general, one is the amount of citations of dissertations generated for a particular program and another one is the amount of people that graduated from a particular program that hold full time professorship positions. I don't have in hand the metrics of programs from places with DETC accreditation but this would make an interesting study about the value of these porgrams in general.

However, as some pointed out, these programs have different objectives so they couldn't be measured with the same metrics as traditional programs but if this is the case, what kind of metrics can be used to measure the value of these programs? Before and after salary? Number of girls that were impressed by the credential in bar? Increase of customers for self employed people? At the end of the day, If I'm putting the money and time in something I need to know what is the value of this unless it is just a vanity degree.

 

One more issue I have is that not all RA universities have the same recognition and respect.

Take the Doctorate that Union Institute used to offer. I think Steve Levicoff has one, no disrespect to Steve even he admitted that his Ph.D program wasn't serious.

Wile RA I honestly think it was under standard and below the standard that some NA universities Doctorates offer today.

We are in a free society and people make their own decisions. No one is forcing anybody to go to NA accredited school.

If one thinks they will be better served by RA school then go for it.

I know that DETC is working hard on strengthening their acceptance, including increased contact with professional and Specialty accrediting agencies.

Maybe one day ABET will accredit some DETC programs in CS and Technology, etc.
You will see equal acceptance of the degree then.
In such case the student will have a choice of Info Systems degree that is only DETC or more expansive Computer Science or IT degree that is ABET.

 

If you are certain a particular degree (and the accreditation of the issuing school) will meet your present and future needs, fine. However....

It is difficult to be very clear on future needs. Thus, a degree issued by a particular school might do well in the presnet, yet fail one in the future. That's the main argument in favor of RA vs. NA.

 

Spoken like someone who has not earned a doctorate from an accredited school.

The fact that all RA schools do not enjoy the same amount of recognition and respect is such an obvious fact that it does not bear mentioning. But to use that notion and apply it to a particular school--along with baseless insinuations--is foolish.

The Union has a long academic history. While it failed to ensure every degree measured up to its standards, that's not the same as saying the school itself was sub-par. Many people completed fine doctorates at Union. Did Union deserve to be sued into bankruptcy in the late 1970's? Almost certainly. Did it deserve its accreditation in the mid-1980's? Yes. Did it deserve to be harassed into abandoning its learner-centered roots and identity in the early 2000's? Absolutely not. But it happened.

"Lerner" (sic) has absolutely no insight into this story.

 

First, I think Truckie is incorrect about DETC and the military (or his friend is incorrect). The military recognizes a wide variety of certifications and accredited programs for using TA, VA, etc. That they would turn around and deny people the right to use these funds at schools accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the US Dept of Ed and CHEA.....I suspect not. Especially since DETC degrees are able to be used in various government jobs and there is a long standing relationship with the military.

Next, I was LOL....when I read the mine is bigger than yours stuff. Look everyone knows that RA from a Bricks and mortar school has most utility. Within that category someone from a "good" RA school is going to look down on doctorates from lower tier schools where the study is done by weekend intensives and summer courses. They will all look down on people with doctorates from schools like NCU, Capella and U of P (have heard both people with doctorates and those without making snide comments about places like UofP and NCU). They may look down on DETC doctorates. If you are not trying to get a tenured faculty job......So???

If someone wants to do doctoral level studies in Public Administration and has no desire to teach in a tenured faculty position or even teach period....why not a DETC doctorate? So what if the person also wants to be known as "Dr.". It was an accredited doctorate by a US Dept of Ed and CHEA recognized accrediting agency. Someone kept harping on vanity but I have seen the vanity out of RA holders both those from places like UofP and more traditional schools. Again, what do I care....they have a legit doctorate.

If you want to earn an accredited doctorate, doing doctorate level studies in a field with no intention of teaching why pay 50,000 when you can pay 16,000 and get the same education? (certainly in terms of comparing DETC to NCU or U of P).

FWIW, I am not enrolled nor do I hold a DETC doctorate.

 

I think that Steve (and others) believe that his Union degree was just fine. I believe, however, that he has said that in his opinion the standards of the school slipped at some point after he left. As for Lerner, I think that he is not qualified to make this statement: "Wile RA I honestly think it was under standard and below the standard that some NA universities Doctorates offer today." and I'd like to see the evidence on which he bases this opinion. Also, this statement, "Also things change, whit time it's possible that the applied doctorates will lead to licensing in additional areas." is a great example of twisted logic. Using the same logic I could say "People who want to be rich should all start hoarding acorns because someday acorns could be worth a lot of money." You can try to justify almost any behavior on the grounds that "someday things might be different," I'd just want to know which DETC doctoral degree Lerner is working toward.