DETC and RA

Dave:

You know that I respect you, and we have had good discussions through PM's. I do not have a dog in this race, but I am of the opinion that DETC is not that bad. Do I think it has the same utility that most RA schools have? No

I have been looking at the big three, and I am most likely going to go that route. I have been in contact with Clemson U., and they are not very receptive of Excelsior either as credit transfer, or a degree. They said I might would have to repeat courses to enter the grad. program if they were by exams. They do not except CLEP except in rare circumstances, and do not accept any other exams. I figure if I go to Excelsior I will cross that bridge when I get there. Clemson may not be in the cards for me anyway because they do not have any internet courses at all. They must want to keep all of those buildings full.

I just received a packet from Excelsior today, and that is the way I am leaning. I want to take some test first to see how I do, and how I like it.

 

How can you be so ignorant that you don't realize that a college is SUPPOSED to educate. You are supposed to know more after they hand you the piece of paper to hang on the wall--Duhhh!!! If it doesn't inprove your knowledge it's not a college it's a credit bank that grants degrees. A 16-17 year old kid can get a college degree before he can meet high school graduation requirements. Really makes me think of an institution of higher learning. To grant degrees in California (Approved) you must include new learning. No approved college can grant degrees on past education and life experience, and neither can a college be accredited by the DETC if it doesn't require new learning. Thirty semester hours seems to be the going rate. Let's see big three "0" semester hours. Some education there, buddy. They make it as easy as possible and still be accredited. A legal degree mill, sounds about right.

 

ad homineum

K-W is no better than a degree mill because it IS a degree mill.

I deleted the rest of your personal attack against Bruce. Although I would like to say this, in my book some of the most honorable professions in this country are teachers, the military and policemen. Insulting members of these groups because they're a member of that group is pretty darn low, at least in my book.

 

James, I really don't believe that Rich meant it as an insult when he said that you were ignorant about "the big three". Although the post you fired back above you used ignorant and it seems obvious you intended it to be an insult. In my opinion, your recent post proves that you are in fact ignorant regarding "the big three". I don't mean that as an insult either just as a statement of fact.

You voice opinions and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. On the other hand you're very ignorant regarding so much about distance learning that many of your opinions voiced here are dangerous to others. That is way your false statements shouldn't be left unchallenged. It has nothing to do with you personally.

Trying to get back to your quote above. I tried to explain earlier in another post that credentialling and education are two different things. An RA credential (degree) has more utility than a DETC credential. While colleges in general do educate, "the big three" is an exception in that the student can earn all 120 credits by proving that they already have obtained that education else where.

Now you can give the opinion that makes "the big three" degree mills. I probably wouldn't even argue with you because that is your opinion. On the other hand, I might decide to point out that your position is hypocritical and inconsistent with your previous argument that Kennedy-Western is not a degree mill. K-W only ensures that the student has received an education equal to 21 credits whereas "the big three" ensure an education of 120 credits.

 

Does this pretty darn low go for you also? You've insulted me many times, and I was in the army from 1969-71. I truly miss the beauty of Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Long marches and KP and all those fun things. You make me blush with pride. Honorable, thank you very much.

 

Let me get the rules straight now. Rich gets to call me ignorant because he really didn't mean it in a negative way. You get to call me very ignorant, and in addition you can call me a hypocrite. When do I get to call you names, or don't I get a turn? This game is very confusing. I want to make the rules next time.

 

You are ignorant of the "the big three". When I called you ignorant, I actually did mean it in a negative way but I didn't mean it as an insult. Okay perhaps you just don't understand the difference between the different tasks that a college typically does perform.

1. Education (means the student has learned)
2. Credentialling (means ensuring that the student has been educated [see above definition of education] in a defined discipline and can be counted on having sufficient education in the standard topics required for that degree/credential)

BTW, I didn't call you a hypocrite, I said that the logical position that K-W is not a degree mill while at the same time believing that "the big three" were degree mills would be hypocritical. I further tried to explain why, that K-W only ensures 21 credits while "the big three" ensure that the graduate has a complete education (a standard education, if you prefer).

Also, you've been insulting others already so I guess your turn is now. You may want to be careful though because I'm sure that you wouldn't want to violate the TOS. What I would suggest instead, if you really want to lay into me, come and visit on Usenet. There you can flame me to your hearts content. (and your right to freedom of speech are in full force since it is completely public) On comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.space-sims I read most of the posts so you can get the satisfaction that I'll probably see your post. I may even oblige you and respond!

Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Feel free to email if you would like some help setting up a news reader, or if you prefer you can just use Google.

 

Who is this person that had only a high school diploma and then did 5-7 courses to get a diploma from K-W. Everybody I know of RJT- Plcscott had lots of RA credits before they did the 5-7 courses at K-W. Do you know of this person? If so please tell me the details. You've never been willing to offer any proof. Who is this mysterious person that got the K-W degree with 21 semester hours and no previous college credits?

I'm very sure you meant the ignorant word in a negative way. I'm sorry you feel the need to attack one of those fine soldiers you recently found so heroic. I thought you found it very low to attack a soldier, policeman. Did you change your mind so soon?

 

Unless RA/DL schools start requiring some new work to earn degrees- 30 semester hours should be a minimum- they are going to lessen the perception of what a college degree is. What are we saying when a teenage kid gets a college degree quicker than a high school diploma. The process of requiring new learning before granting degrees is used by DETC schools, and is a good one. It guarantees that the student is really capable of doing college level work, and that knowledge is up to date. Here is a case where DETC standards are superior.

Nothing is fixed in stone when using DETC or RA/DL. You will be dealing with an individual college on an individual basis. The college considering you is doing just that, considering you, not an accreditor or system. The quality of your presentation will decide your fate. Where one person fails another succeeds, usually by the willingness to go further longer. 67% of all DETC students wanting to transfer credits or degrees to traditional schools did so. The success rate of lower tier RA schools have less than 100% success rate transferring to other traditional schools. Since John Bear has said that 7% of colleges won't accept DL degrees. This means the acceptance is 93% at a maximum. Walden University now accepts DETC degrees and transfer credits. Other schools have begun doing this since the 2001 study showing the 67% acceptance. The best rate would be 67% possibly a little more vs. a maximum 93% RA/DL. This 93% would be for the more successful RA/DL programs. With their lower acceptance levels, lower tier would be closer to DETC acceptance. Possibly at 80% percent or so. Schools that accept big three degrees are much less willing to accept transfer credit based on the tests used and accepted by the big three, Clemson University as an example.

 

You're the one who attempted to wrap yourself in the First Amendment. I merely pointed out that it doesn't apply here.

I've been more than fair in dealing with you, James, but you're now crossing the line into personal attacks, which is a violation of the TOS. Here's your one warning.

Once more, and you're gone.

 

Has Kennedy-Western ever required anyone to earn 30 semester hours in new courses? Ever?

What do you make of the fact that some DETC schools will allow students to transfer in up to half of the credits for a Master's degree? Do you know of any RA schools that will allow this level of transfer at the graduate level?

Yes 67% does sound much more precise than 2/3. And that is misleading. You've added a significant digit.

Moreover, you seem to have a lot of confidence in this study. Would you mind telling us a bit about it's methodology?

No, it doesn't. If the degree is from a traditional school, then the vast majority of the time the registrars won't know that it was earned through DL. They could ask, of course. But they rarely do.

 

I didn't call you "ignorant" in a general sense. I can't; I don't know you. You're displaying ignorance regarding how Excelsior, TESC, and COSC operate and why. I made that pretty clear.

I am intrigued that you would call them "legal degree mills," and yet argue that Kennedy-Western University is not a degree mill. How do you reconcile that?

 

James, what I said was that insulting someone by using the fact that they were a member of one of those groups was low. I never said that teachers, military and policemen were occupations that somehow magically made the members immune to being ignorant, incompetent, obnoxious, illogical, or being down right stupid. What I said was that those were most honorable professions and that using the fact that someone had that profession as an insult was very low in my opinion. This is what you did.

 

thanks Bruce, this was very informative... and explains much about tolerance to educational diversity here.

 

I don't see the DETC standards as being superior, as there are very few regionally accredited (distance learning or not) schools that do not require that at least 30 credits be completed at the institution in order to earn a degree. In fact, that the Big Three do not have this requirement is what truly makes them unique. They feel confident (and the regional accreditors have agreed) that they have mechanisms in place by which they can ensure that the student is capable of college-level work. The primary mechanism is, of course, the criteria determining what is acceptable as legitimate college credit. Moreover, as to making sure that the knowledge is current, most assessment colleges impose expiration dates on courses in disciplines where this might present a problem. Could it be that your disparagement of the assessment schools is motivated by the fact that one of their criteria is not to accept courses from DETC schools?

Moreover, there are two interesting issues concerning the requirement that 30 credits be completed at a school in order for them to grant you a degree. First (and this is the what the institution wants you to believe is their primary focus), the school wants to make sure the student can perform at the same level as other graduates of that institution (not, as you assert, simply college level work). Second, the institution wants its pound of flesh. In other words, if you want a degree that says XYZ University, then you must pay the price in terms of work and, of course, money. You don’t get the brand name for nothing. They really don’t care (or can even ascertain) that the student has learned something new.

As I see it, one of the problems with your arguments it is that you are comparing two completely different statistics (or apples and oranges, as the saying goes). The 93% statistic is the percentage of colleges that accept a regionally accredited DL degree. The DETC’s 2/3 statistic is the number of degree holders whose degrees were accepted for further study at traditional schools. (I don’t know how the DETC defines traditional or if the figure includes students that went on to further studies at DETC accredited schools.) The problem with this comparison is that if all the DETC graduates simply chose to apply to schools that had a policy of accepting DETC degrees, then the statistic could conceivably be 100% instead of 2/3. Does anyone know the percentage of regionally accredited schools that accept DETC degrees? I can't imagine the ratio would be even remotely close to being 2 out of every 3.

Your assertion that the 93% acceptance of RA DL degrees applies only to the more prestigious programs is conjecture. I believe the survey did not make this distinction. Therefore, the figure is representative of the overall acceptance of all RA DL programs. On the other hand, the DETC statistic might indeed be skewed depending on whether the graduates of the most prestigious schools or the best students are more prone to seek additional degrees than those who graduate from less reputable schools or students with poorer academic records. (For example, the DETC freely admits that only 1 in 3 graduates attempted to pursue further studies.) If so, then the 2/3 statistic cited is weighted in favor (and hence more representative) of the better DETC schools and or students than all of them.

Once again, I have nothing against DETC accreditation. I believe it serves an important function and sincerely hope the utility and public perception of DETC degrees improves. Toward this end, however, obfuscation and subterfuge are counterproductive.

 

So now Bruce is part of the RA conspiracy? HAHAHA

Seriously though, it's not an issue of views it is an issue of violating the TOS. Part of the TOS is that personal attacks are not allowed. These claims of personal attacks against RJT and company are false, IMHO.

As an example of a statement being misconstrued as a personal attack, look at the recent incident with the word ignorant. I'm ignorant on many more topics than I'm knowledgable in. That is not insulting myself. On the other hand, I resist the urge to pontificate on topics that I'm ignorant of. The reason I considered my statement negative when I pointed out that James is ignorant about "the big three" was simply because he was going on about a topic that he's apparently totally ignorant in. That is a negative situation, therefore pointing out the negative was a negative statement.

Another example of a statement being misconstrued as a personal attack was me giving the opinion that it seemed hypocritical to take the position that "the big three" were a degree mill and at the same time believe that K-W is not a degree mill. Instead of James explaining his rational he just went off about insults. It leads me to believe that there is no rational. It must just be the position that James decided to take for argumentative or emotional reasons?

 

These are clearly your words and not mine... are you laughing at yourself or just belittling your own statement?

 

In reality numbers about acceptability are not extremely important since any person with a degree from any DL/RA or DETC school will be able to continue their education at traditional schools. There are more than three thousand colleges and universities in the United States and plenty of them will accept lower tier RA/DL colleges and as I have shown, 67% of DETC students continued onward also. Individual students with any strong desire can find more than enough colleges to accept their transfer credit and degrees. The proper accreditors have accepted the DETC and its schools, this is the sign of their quality- GAAP-CHEA-USDOE no self appointed accreditors from degreeinfo get a vote, thank God.