DETC and RA

Oh really. How exactly did you show this? Perhaps I missed it. As far as I can tell, you have taken some figures from a DETC survey (of which you know absolutely nothing about its validity) and mangled them to come to this conclusion.

 

I believe that 67 % of those attempting to enter a higher level program were accepted.

These numbers are not much different from numbers in John Bear's survey of registrars. I think it said that about 50-60% of registrars always accept, usually accept or sometimes accept DETC degrees.

I would guess that as long as DETC graduates are willing to apply to many programs, known to accept DETC graduates, their rate of admission would approach 100 %.

Top teir schools that accept a fraction of applicants would rarely accept a DETC grad.

 

You keep repeating this "high school kid" argument. Why? Do you beleive that people under certain age are somehow unable to do college work and should be disallowed to get degrees? This is nonsense. My little sister was 15 when she went to (RA, residential state school, NCAA Division 1 - she got athletic scholarship) university. Is she somehow inferior? I beg to differ. In fact, she had graduated high school with honors and exceeded university admissions requirements - 15 year old girl whose first language is not English.
Back to the topic: if you want to continue this conversation and not look stupid, do take your time and learn what CLEP really is. A person who passed the test had demonstrated mastery of the content area on par or superior to 50% of traditional college students taking same course - this is simply the way those damn things were designed and graded. Unless proven otherwise by careful and methodically sound study, I am willing to beleive College Board folks on this one - they are professionals and make their methodology public for any honest critic to see.
Big Three colleges are extremely unambitious with regard to their teaching (they DO teach). But they are ASSESSMENT colleges. In their small field of measuring and recognising prior learning, they are among the leaders, having designed their own testing programs (ECE and TECEP). Comparing them to primarily teaching institutions is, yes, ignorant.

 

My 2 cents worth.

I think anecdotally that I have seen requirements at some DETC degree granting institutions that are probably higher in terms of level of work required for the degree than some RA schools. Is a DETC school possibly more stringent than UofP or the Big Three? Quite possibly.

One cannot really dispute that the utility between RA & NA is different. The place where I work will consider DETC accredited degrees on par with RA for employment (other employers will not). A growing number of schools will admit DETC accredited grad degree holders to doctoral study, many more RA schools will not. This is reality. If you are doing a DETC accredited egree and enjoying it...great. You will end up with an accredited degree but be well aware of some possible utility issues. I may some day study for the CDU Masters but I am not expecting that to gain me admission to Notre Dame's doctoral program in Theology.

As for the Big Three mentioned here. As a Canuck who sat in a University for 4 years, I was annoyed to discover that folks could get degrees this way. To use Steve L.'s lingo I considered it a wierd joke. Nonetheless, if people have found an easier way to earn a degree then so be it. They still have earned an accredited BA (etc). Do I think you get the same level of education......no. Do I think it really measures what it is supposed to......gut level feeling is no (it misses the process). BUT.....what do I say to a Steve L. or even better to a Tom Head who is obviously very very bright and for whom sitting for 4 years as I did would likely not have made him any better as a scholar than testing out and getting portfolio credit. For him it seems to have measured learning and led him into his graduate studies and doctoral studies.

North

 

I have never found a better method of learning than opening a book and reading it from cover to cover.

 

The University of Maryland has around 20,000 undergrads -- comparable to peer schools in the Big 10 or ACC. It is half the size of U of Wisconsin. Its undergraduate and graduate majors mostly rank among the top 25 of their kind according to the US News Rankings. Its programs in Business, Engineering, Journalism, the Sciences and Economics are among the foremost anywhere.

The Undergraduate class has an incoming GPA of 3.8+/4.0 this year, an average SAT of 1290 and is now among the 10 most selective public schools in the nation.

Are you prepared to support your claim that the education received at a DL school like Phoenix or Capella or UMUC or Open U outgun one received from UMD?

 

I have not been empowered to speak for Kirkland. He's certainly very capable of his own defense, but will offer these thoughts. I don't have any precise knowledge of facts concerning the University of Maryland, so will accept your statements concerning its good quality. The DL schools you mention are the lower tier of DL schools and are only part of the standards that make up DL schools. There are other DL schools that equal or surpass the University of Maryland. If you go to the top tier of DL schools you find higher standards and tougher requirements. Some of these schools include-Pennsylvania State University-Stanford University-Harvard. I in no way mention these three schools as representative of all schools involved with DL, but just to show that some pretty high standards do exist. I'm sure University of Maryland has many fine qualities and is much above the lower tier of DL schools and is competitive vs. the mid and upper levels of DL schools. I also agree with Kirkland about the high quality of the one to one approach used by DL schools. I in no way like the idea of 18 years olds using the lower tier schools to get degrees quickly and more easily. In my view, just as in B & M schools, a young person with little life or job experience should use the best DL school they can afford or get accepted by. Quicker and easier may apply just fine for the older more experienced student but not to the teenager with little job experience and who must depend on quality education to help pave the way through open doors. As you see the best of the DL schools include some of the nations best colleges, and schools a bit less than that, but the delivery system of DL is excellent for many people, especially for the mature adult. To answer your question directly [ no the colleges you mention are not better than the University of Maryland]. I still believe the one to one approach is an excellent delivery system for education, and that it in many ways is superior to some of the delivery systems used by other schools. Classes seem to be getting too large and students are lost in the mix. They often have little access to their teachers in any useful way. A large lecture hall with hundreds of students at a time is not excellence in education.

 

Those aren't DL schools, they are schools that offer some DL programs.

 

U of M is a fine State school. It has a reported student body of 34-38,000 for the College Park campus alone, Eastern Shore another 4,000, etc.). This doesn't include the distance component to the University (UMUC) reporting 90-100,000 students. The lectures can be large, especially for undergrad courses, and there are a large percentage of classes taught by teaching assistants (e.g. Arts & Humanities reports 1/3 of the classes are taught by teaching assistants). I have lived in the D.C. area for 50 years with many associates close to the College Park campus. There is a large turnover of students there, many never graduating. I personally think that environment is not the best way to spend precious resources (time and money) for education nor is it the most conducive to learning. On the other hand, I'm sure there are many successful graduates who compare favorably to the best schools.

I think the traditional learning method of large state schools (U of M as an example) is challenged and can be bettered in some cases by smaller distance-oriented schools that provide closer (in some cases one-on-one) interaction with more capable instructors. This of course depends on the student's individual needs for learning. I can't define what you mean by "outgun" and I didn't mention the schools you referred to.

 

huh?

“I have not been empowered to speak for Kirkland. He's certainly very capable of his own defense, but will offer these thoughts. I don't have any precise knowledge of facts concerning the University of Maryland, so will accept your statements concerning its good quality.”

Don’t take my word for it. Do some research for yourself. Look at www.usnews.com best graduate schools and tell me where you see DL programs rank higher than state schools like Maryland-College Park, Wisconsin-Madison, Illinois-Urbana Champaign etc etc in any field. In fact they don’t rank DL programs at all as far as I know.

Please post a link if I am incorrect.

“The DL schools you mention are the lower tier of DL schools and are only part of the standards that make up DL schools. There are other DL schools that equal or surpass the University of Maryland.”

Name one primarily DL school that “surpasses” any tier one or tier 2 National Universities in either prestige, quality of classmates, selectivity or name recognition -- much less education received. Capella, UMUC, Phoenix and others don’t for sure, and you claim those are the lower tier of DL programs. So why not tell me which DL programs do. Which Colleges are the “upper tier” of DL universities? Penn State World Campus? UT Telecampus? Harvard Extension? Just curious. None of these outrank even the lowest nationally accredited Nat U according to NRC or US News.

“If you go to the top tier of DL schools you find higher standards and tougher requirements. Some of these schools include-Pennsylvania State University-Stanford University-Harvard.”

First off, Harvard, Leland Stanford and Penn State-U Park are not DL schools. They may offer one or two programs, but they are not DL schools.

I would be surprised if Harvard offers many distance options except, perhaps for engineering graduate degrees. On the other hand, if you are referring to Harvard EXTENSION School which offers separate degrees from other schools at Harvard University, programs from HES in no way compare in selectivity or what have you to any school in the US News top tier. HES is open enrollment. Obviously Harvard College is one of the finest bricks and mortar schools in the nation if that is what you meant, but I doubt you can get an undergraduate or many graduate degrees wholly online from Harvard. Please post a link.

The Penn State University-U Park, the one the ranks comparably [not much higher frankly] to the U. Md. at College Park in US News, is the flagship campus of the state system (ie Penn state-Behrend, Penn State-Harrisburg, and the other universities rank separately in lower tiers). Like Maryland, Penn State offers few if any distance learning options. Besides, even if you could argue that Penn State-U Park was ranked higher than U. Md. (debateable and depends on program) it is not a DL school either.

Now Penn State-World Campus is, but that is a different open enrollment university within the Penn State System with different degrees.

For example, you can get an DL MBA from Penn State-World Campus (This is a different University than Penn State-U Park). However, the degree will NOT be from the high ranking Penn State -- Smeal School of Business you see in US News. Different school-different degree.

“I in no way mention these three schools as representative of all schools involved with DL, but just to show that some pretty high standards do exist.”

Actually Harvard Extension School and Penn State World Campus are virtually OPEN ENROLLMENT. That’s their purpose. Stanford may offer some DL degrees, but if they do—and are not part of a separate degree granting for profit continuing ed college under Stanford—the standards to get into the program are probably equal to the standards on turf. Ie the HCP program online at Stanford is HIGHLY SELECTIVE but is the same program as that offered on the ground. DL is a delivery method.

“I'm sure University of Maryland has many fine qualities and is much above the lower tier of DL schools and is competitive vs. the mid and upper levels of DL schools.”

Huh? The University of Maryland, Penn State, even less famous schools like Penn State-Harrisburg or U.Md-Baltimore County outrank ANY DL program according to USNews. In fact, DL programs do not rank anywhere on the US News graduate school rankings.

HOWEVER, some schools that rank higher than U.Md. et al. offer DL programs as I mentioned with Stanford HCP. This is a fine distinction. For example, Duke’s Fuqua School of Business offers their top 10 ranked MBA program online. And the coveted degree is the same as the one from the B&M school. And yes it would be a slightly better degree than the MBA from the Smith School of Business at U.Md which only ranks #25 in the nation. But that is because the DL program is affiliated with the traditional program at the same School – Duke’s Fuqua School of Business – and offers the same degree as full time Duke MBA’s.

“I also agree with Kirkland about the high quality of the one to one approach used by DL schools. I in no way like the idea of 18 years olds using the lower tier schools to get degrees quickly and more easily. In my view, just as in B & M schools, a young person with little life or job experience should use the best DL school they can afford or get accepted by.”

You’re entitled to your opinion. I find it unlikely that anyone would argue that a DL undergraduate outweighs the 4 year experience – even at “Low Tier” schools.

“Quicker and easier may apply just fine for the older more experienced student but not to the teenager with little job experience and who must depend on quality education to help pave the way through open doors. As you see the best of the DL schools include some of the nations best colleges, and schools a bit less than that, but the delivery system of DL is excellent for many people, especially for the mature adult.”

DL learners are motivated people. But that isn’t what I’m arguing. Please provide links that show DL schools that rank higher than Penn State-U Park or U.Md.—College Park or even lower ranked state schools. I’ve been following college rankings for years, and have never seen it.

 

Hi PortB71: Thank you for the common sense. I am sure that there are some scattered DL programs out there which are genuinely extraordinary. Most of what I've seen--including what I'm doing--is utilitarian, not parnassian. I think DL is one of the great inventions and I love it dearly, but having done my BA at a topflight RA college, and without disparaging in any way the intellectual challenge I'm facing now, I recall the words of a Turkish commentator upon the death of Kemal Ataturk and the accession of Ismet Inonu [and, yes, I know there should be umlauts on the u's and the o but dunno how to put 'em there]:
"Turkey has lost her lover and must now settle down with her husband."
I would hate to haul my ass to a lecture hall and listen to someone yaya at me--that's why I became a cleric (I get to do the yaya-ing). I would not be able to get to a B&M campus for any kind of class schedule, due to distance and my own chaotic work schedule. I have realized the subtle constraints on rural folk (since becoming one) in getting to B&M institutions. Is DL great, under these circumstances? Yes. Is is just a booby prize? Certainly not! Does it need to vaunt itself above this or that tier of RA B&M schools? For the life of me, I can't see how--and I can't see why.
And, no, nobody "empowered" me (giggle giggle) to speak for anybody but myself, which should be quite enough--or possibly too much entirely.

 

“U of M is a fine State school. It has a reported student body of 34-38,000 for the College Park campus alone, Eastern Shore another 4,000, etc.).”

Actually, the only undergraduate public school entitled to call itself “The University of Maryland” is the University of Maryland at College Park (www.umd.edu). The University System of Maryland (www.usmd.edu) has other universities like UMBC (www.umbc.edu), UMES (www.umes.edu), Towson State (www.towson.edu), etc etc, but those are separate universities just like The University of California at Berkeley is different from the University of California – Los Angeles.

The University of Maryland (at College Park) had 23,000 applications for only 4,000 spots in the freshman class. The University has less than 20,000 undergrads at any given year. http://www.urhome.umd.edu/factcard/ I cannot tell you about UMES, as it is a different school that offers different degrees and is ranked differently from UMD.

“This doesn't include the distance component to the University (UMUC) reporting 90-100,000 students.”

UMUC (www.umuc.edu ) is a separate school from UMD ( www.umd.edu ). Therefore the statistics are meaningless.

“The lectures can be large, especially for undergrad courses, and there are a large percentage of classes taught by teaching assistants (e.g. Arts & Humanities reports 1/3 of the classes are taught by teaching assistants). I have lived in the D.C. area for 50 years with many associates close to the College Park campus. There is a large turnover of students there, many never graduating.”

I am sure this is true at all the best known large state schools.

“I personally think that environment is not the best way to spend precious resources (time and money) for education nor is it the most conducive to learning. On the other hand, I'm sure there are many successful graduates who compare favorably to the best schools.”

Maryland is no better than, say, Texas or Ohio State, but that still means it IS one of the best schools in the nation depending on program. Its MBA ( www.rhsmith.umd.edu )program is the best in the DC area. Its Engineering program ranks higher than Johns Hopkins. It depends on program, but UMD has few if any “bad” programs. It is a large state school though, and like others, you get what you put into it.

”I think the traditional learning method of large state schools (U of M as an example) is challenged and can be bettered in some cases by smaller distance-oriented schools that provide closer (in some cases one-on-one) interaction with more capable instructors.”

Are you arguing UMUC is better than UMD for example? I would have a hard time believing that.

 

Janko,

You're clearly a well-read person, and my posts were not meant to suggest DL learning is for the birds. I am suggesting that the posters assertions that "standards" of DL schools outweigh those of traditional well-known state schools is unsupported by rankings. UMUC is not more selective than UMD. PSU-World Campus is not more selective than Penn State.

I am interested in DL for self improvement myself. But I won't
include such a program on my professional CV unless it is part of a traditional school and not a continuing ed division.

I do not personally compare DL programs favorably to the real time experience. That doesn't mean some of the teachers and classmates are not as brilliant as anyone at the best schools in the nation.

Free country right?

 

Cripes. I agreed with you.
It's the children's chorus (constantly comparing, um, portfolio size) that bugs me. The "is too better" whining does not help the case for DL, or non-RA DL, or anything else.

 

Well Janko, I thought you agreed with him too. Although I did have to get a dictionary out to read your post.

 

Exits right, mumbling.

 

We seem to be discussing this from two different viewpoints. You are discussing the merits of U of M, the school, its ranking, and comparison to others in certain fields. That's fine and like I said its a fine school. However, that's not the point I was making. I am looking at this from the standpoint of the individual student who may require a different learning method than traditional. In your example, UMUC may indeed be a better school for an individual, especially if that individual has left U of M in frustration.

 

Janko,

I was not reponding to you in disagreement. Sorry if it came across that way. I was kind of responding to the wrong poster come to think of it, joining your comments with those of others.

Sorry if I sounded rude.

*tail between legs*

 

"We seem to be discussing this from two different viewpoints. You are discussing the merits of U of M, the school, its ranking, and comparison to others in certain fields. That's fine and like I said its a fine school. However, that's not the point I was making. I am looking at this from the standpoint of the individual student who may require a different learning method than traditional. In your example, UMUC may indeed be a better school for an individual, especially if that individual has left U of M in frustration."

Indeed this was not the point you were making. It was the point of another poster that DL Universities are more selective than traditional schools.

I agree there are many personal reasons why students choose DL universities over traditional ones.

 

If you are to exclude all DL programs that are not from exclusively DL schools, little of RA/DL is left. I don't believe that you can out of hand dismiss a program from Harvard as completely different from the quality of the university itself. It was never my intention to claim a superiority for DL schools. I'll continue to use that term as many DL programs are separate from the main school and to an extent are separate from the business of the B & M school. I do not agree at all that high quality is lost by delivering education by Distance Learning. To make the statement that quality B & M education is by its nature superior to DL is extreme [ in my opinion ]. DL by its nature is a one person at a time situation. The better DL schools, some I have mentioned, offer high quality, and good name recognition. I doubt anyone would reject the selling power of a degree from Harvard, no matter if DL or B & M. The University of Maryland offers a rich list of fine programs to the distance learner. They list numerous bachelor's and master's programs. I don't think Maryland, Stanford, or Harvard are going to risk their good names on poor DL programs.