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  1. portb71

    portb71 New Member

    I urge you to reread my post. I agree if the degree is from the SAME school (ie top ranked Fuqua school of Business at Duke has a Trad and DL version of its top 10 ranked MBA) than delivery is a matter of preference perhaps since professors and classmate quality will be the same. The degree will be equally valued fdor the most part -- will have the same AACSB accredidation and links to corporate recruiters at Duke.

    But you are mixing up and combining institutions to create an unclear point. For example, the University of Maryland has no control over what programs UMUC offers on line for a simple reason: UMUC and UMD are two totally different universities. The UMUC MBA program for example is not in any way related to the top 25 MBA program at UMD.

    UMD may indeed offer a few DL programs. But UMUC is a completely separate university and as such, UMD can not decide what content is in UMUC's programs any more than Oxford can dictate what is in Yale's curriculum, they are not the same school.

    Harvard can provide some asistance to HES -- after all even though it is legally a separate degree, it is also the adult division of the university. I took an HES class once and it was passable -- but it was no Harvard class in the trad sense even though it was offered at night on the same campus.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2003
  2. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    I originally said that DETC represents a learning paradigm that is superior to some large State universities... key point: learning paradigm... and gave some examples using U of M as an example of what I think is a less than optimal (I used the word "terrible") learning environment. This underscored the point that in certain circumstances the distance method has the potential for improved learning. It was not my intent to denigrate U of M or those who subscribe to the traditional method, so let's not spend any more electrons on that.
     
  3. portb71

    portb71 New Member

    Agreed. I am the first to suggest that there should be more DL format versions of traditional programs. Duke-Fuqua and Florida-Warrington Business schools are examples of programs whose DL program shares the same great faculty and selectivity standards and offer the same exact degree as the traditional programs. This is the model for "legitimizing" DL. If you get a degree, any degree, from the Fuqua school at Duke for example, it is guaranteed to be of high quality no matter how delivered.

    Primarily DL schools, or continuing ed divisions, however, have a long way to go before becoming mainstream in the eyes of the Carnegie Foundation. That doesn't mean they aren't great vehicles for learning.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2003
  4. portb71

    portb71 New Member

    Agreed. I am the first to suggest that there should be more DL format versions of traditional programs. Duke-Fuqua and Florida-Warrington Business schools are examples of programs whose DL program shares the same great faculty and selectivity standards and offer the same exact degree as the traditional programs. This is the model for "legitimizing" DL. If you get a degree, any degree, from the Fuqua school at Duke, it is guaranteed to be of high quality for example.
     
  5. portb71

    portb71 New Member

    Agreed. I am the first to suggest that there should be more DL format versions of traditional programs. Duke-Fuqua and Florida-Warrington Business schools are examples of programs whose DL program shares the same great faculty and selectivity standards and offer the same exact degree as the traditional programs. This is the model for "legitimizing" DL. If you get a degree, any degree, from the Fuqua school at Duke, it is guaranteed to be of high quality for example.
     
  6. kf5k

    kf5k member

    Distance Learning has been around for many years and doesn't need "legitimizing". Its legitiamacy comes from its recognition by "USDOE and CHEA", and by the people over the years having used it and those who have accepted it.

    People who are experts at delivering B & M education are not necessarily the best people to deliver DL.

    Distance learning is already part of the main stream. I'm afraid you are a bit behind the times. Good schools offer quality education by distance learning. There is no long journey to go for distance learning, except in the eyes of a few.
     
  7. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    That last handfull of postings have mentioned either Harvard, or Harvard Extension in connection to DL. Regardless of your opinion of HES, I think it's innacurate to say that it has any DL "programs." I believe that HES offers some DL courses (how many, I don't know) but I don't believe that you can complete any of their degree programs entirely through DL. Because of this I think it misrepresents these degree programs to refer to them as "DL programs." It would be interesting to know how many people have completed HES degree programs by taking the maximum number of allowed DL courses. My guess is that it's relatively small. It might be more a case of "I want to take two courses that are offered at the same time . . . I know, I'll take one through DL . . ."
    Jack
     
  8. c.novick

    c.novick New Member


    Right James,

    While every situation is different, DL universities have a place in providing quality education in today's socieity.

    It comes down to what are the student's needs. DL is an option for career driven adults who want to maximize their free time or just don't have the wherewithal to get to a B&M campus.

    Distance learning is becoming more popular RA or DETC. We all know how great the DETC schools are :)
     
  9. c.novick

    c.novick New Member

    I think the key is here... "to steal Kirkland's point"...

    It is a paradigm shift from traditional education to distance learning. There are many students, schools and business that are still not ready for the change in learning methodology.

    I admit a few years ago when I would see one of several thousand U of P commercials, I would think to my self that it just wasn't possible to learn that way.

    Well, I was wrong and I am learning more through distance education. Is DL right for eveyone? No. Is it better? No.

    Are we observing a paradigm shift in education? I think so.

    Thanks for letting me steal up on your point Kirkland. :)
     
  10. c.novick

    c.novick New Member

    While making any comparison there is room for opinion. If James had points brought forward that were innaccurate they should be called out.

    Comparing institutions may be difficult while attempting to make a point. No matter how wrong or right that point may be, one should not be called "ignorant". Just make your appropriate corrections that you feel are accurate...

    and if you are going to imply someone is "ignorant". Always remember ...

    "i" before "e" :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2003
  11. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Sure there is. The problem is that James keeps making the same inaccurate points.
    Okay, either his statements are the result of ignorance or they are a result of something that would surely be considered a personal attack. Take your pick, but I think attributing them to ignorance is much more polite than the alternatives.
    LOL. I don't comment on grammatical or spelling errors because I make a lot of them myself. Pot calling the kettle black and all that. Perhaps you should take the same position? Regardless, he didn't imply James was ignorant, he stated it. The position James has taken has no basis in fact. If you are willing to let people post misleading nonsense I suppose that is your choice. Quite a few people here are not willing to let that type of misinformation go without challenging it, and rightfully so! This isn't because they are out to get James or any other poster. This isn't because it matters to them personally, either in their family or work environment. This is because they are people of principle. People who don't want other people that they do not even know, and will likely never know, to be misled. Perhaps you should reread this thread and compare the arguments.

    Thanks,
    Tony
     
  12. c.novick

    c.novick New Member


    1. James is not defending degree mills, he is defending DETC accreditation.

    2. Like it or not, DETC is a legitimate accreditation. It is not as widely accepted as RA, granted.

    3. Anyone would defend what they believe is right. I would expect you to do the same. It doesn't make you "ignorant". If you don't agree with James, counter his points, don't resort to name calling.

    4.Just because someone has their own opinion, right or wrong, doesn't mean that they do not have principle.

    Thanks Tony for the feedback. Always appreciated.

    :)
     
  13. kf5k

    kf5k member


    GAPP+CHEA +USDOE = DETC +SCHOOLS
     
  14. kf5k

    kf5k member

    Apparently you don't like criticism Tony, then don't dish it out if you can't take it. I fail to see anything polite about your negative comments. You intended it to be insulting and trying to hide behind pretended virtue is hypocrisy.
     
  15. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    It is a noble thing to try to keep people from being misled, or duped into going into a school, or program that is not on the up and up. I wished I would have been more informed on the decision I made. However, some are looking more to get into a argument, and to tear people down more than they are looking to help. It is one thing to say I would not go to this institution, and here is why. It is another try and provoke, and belittle people.

    I also think that there should be a big difference between the arguments made against unaccredited schools and state approved, and the arguments made against DETC. Does anyone here think that DETC schools are in the same category as the others?

    If someone were to come here, and read this thread they might think that DETC is a bad thing. DETC is clearly not RA, but it does have its place.

    It seems right or wrong that when terms like ignorant are used arguments follow. Instead of saying:

    Your statements are ignorant, or you are ignorant.

    Why not say?

    You do not understand, or I think you are misinformed.

    The same point comes across. I did not quote anyone here, and I am not pointing at any specks in someones eye I would just like to see more respect shown on both sides of every debate. Is that too much to ask?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2003
  16. c.novick

    c.novick New Member


    Thanks Scott. It shouldn't be too much to ask.
     
  17. portb71

    portb71 New Member

    OK, I see the confusion. Time for some brutal honesty as a former recruiter by what I mean by “legitimate”. Bear with my poor grammar as this was typed fast.

    What seems “legitimate” in your eyes may not seem “legitimate” in the eyes of the rest of the world, no matter how many “agencies” put their stamp of approval on a program.

    This is a very fine point the idea of "legitimacy". There are several ways to look at DL and continuing ed from a "legitimacy" POV. I look at "legitimacy" as meaning mainstream acceptance of the degree from selective employers and selective graduate schools, not accreditation.

    Accreditation is meaningless without acceptance from the intended. AACSB accreditation barely means a quality MBA program for example. How could it? Over 250 schools have AACSB accredidation, and remember AACSB is one of the more elite accredidations one can have. Sort of an ABA approval for MBA programs if you will.

    Without even AACSB, we will not even look at the candidate. It is a bare bones minimum criterion, but nothing more.

    I wouldn't doubt a great number of open enrollment DL programs are of the highest quality if this is what you mean by “legitimate”. The basic Accounting or Literature material that is taught in the classroom at Georgetown is no different than what is taught online at Phoenix more than likely. But my comments on "legitimacy" have more to do with the degree granting institution than with the method of delivery of the degree. Accredidation is a bare bones minimum criterion but no guarantee of legitimacy.

    I'll separate my arguments in order of "legitimacy":

    __________________________________________________
    Issue (1) DL (i.e. Duke Fuqua MBA online) vs. Traditional (ie Duke Fuqua MBA on turf)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    All things equal, I have only argued the experience is superior in person than hiding behind a computer screen. I never made the claim that learning is **seriously** delegitimized when done independently. Enough said on this point. If the DL version offers the SAME professors, SAME quality of classmates and most importantly the EXACT SAME degree as the B&M degree, it is wholly legitimate from the perspective of mainstream selective recruiters and academics. Examples: RPI-Lally School, Florida-Warrington for business.....JHU-Whitting, UMD, Columbia-Fu Found etc etc for Engineering...and others all offer DL degrees that are no different from the nationally recognized degree on turf. They are issued by the actual graduate school of Business or Engineering or what have you that are the traditional schools on the ground.

    DL is very legitimate here.

    __________________________________________________
    Issue (2) Traditional RA DL (i.e. UT-Austin) vs. Traditional RA Continuing Ed Division DL (ie UT System Telecampus)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You may be absolutely correct that Continuing Ed divisions of major schools/school systems (some have been around for 80 years) have more experience delivering courses at a distance than the parent Universities. Unfortunately, from a "legitimacy" standpoint, unlike in scenario 1, the online degree offers at best only SOME of the same professors if any, quality of classmates is NOT very selective and MOST IMPORTANTLY the online degree from UT Telecampus is NOT the same as the one from UT (Austin).

    That does not mean it is not "legitimate" from an education pov. However, you'd have to expect some selective employers and academics to wince at this degree. It isn't so much a question of online versus B&M as it is PSU-U Park versus PSU-World Campus on the degree itself. Or Harvard versus Harvard Extension. The degrees are simply different and we as recruiters are aware of the differences.

    In other words, schools ranging from PSU-U Park, U.Md-College Park, Texas Austin up to Columbia offer some of their own DL programs as mentioned in scenario 1, and THOSE degrees would be promoted to “legitimate” status by the argument of outside perception despite the fact that degrees from affiliated open-enrolment schools ranging from PSU System-World Campus, UMUC, UT Telecampus and Columbia School of Professional Studies might be better in terms of delivery and format because of the experience of those divisions.


    __________________________________________________
    Issue (3) Traditional RA Continuing Ed Division DL (i.e. Penn State World Campus) vs. DL only school (i.e. DETC accredited school)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again continuing Ed Open enrollment divisions of major schools/school systems (some have been around for 80 years) have more experience delivering courses at a distance. Therefore in my opinion, you are better off at UT Telecampus or UMUC than at some new for profit entity just because you can fool some of the people some of the time in less selective employers or grad schools...HOWEVER. That said, from a legitimacy argument, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here on that argument.

    Most selective academics and recruiters will not care about the minute differences in legitimacy between, say UT Telecampus and Phoenix since neither will set fireworks off. Therefore, you may as well go where you feel adequate review of DL by an accrediting authority implies higher quality. Perhaps that is UMUC or UT Telecampus. Perhaps that is Phoenix or American Military U. At this point, the legitimacy argument, at least as I mean it, is moot.

    --
    My final point is this. It is incorrect to simplify the argument as "online" versus "Real time". Not all DL is created equal from a "legitimacy" POV. However, all DL may be "legitimate" in terms of learning environment depending on personal circumstances.
     
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I don't beleive anyone think that. Quoting Rich Douglas, "no legitimately accredited institution is a mill". DETC is a legitimate accreditor. Yet, it is not RA.
    True.
    Point taken. Thank you. To my defence, since English is my second (third, actually) language, I might not fully realize the emotional weight of the term. You can say that I didn't understand it, or was ignorant about this particular point. :D

    You must also admit that DETC advocates here weren't too polite either.
     
  19. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    English is my only language, and I am not well versed in it. :D

    My response was general, and not directed at anyone. It applies to myself as well.
     
  20. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Port, of the 99 posts you've made to this board, almost every single one of them either trumpet the University of Maryland, put down DL programs, or both.

    You're always welcome, of course, but I'm just curious...why do you visit here? :confused:
     

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