Atlantic International University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by mbwa shenzi, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Sort of. The accreditor IS recognized by the UK. The issue is that "accreditation" has a completely different meaning. UK accreditors do not do what U.S. accreditors do. So there is a perception that AIU and other U.S. based schools are exploiting that different word usage to make themselves sound more legitimate than they are.

    This is correct. However, there are some unaccredited schools in the U.S. which still qualify you for licensure though they are becoming few and far between as more states push accreditation as a requirement for a school to operate.
  2. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Recognized by whom in the UK? Recognized as being what? Recognized for what purpose?

    Several people have written that and I don't understand it.

    What distinguishes what the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education is doing in Britain from what the regional accreditors are doing in the United States? They are all providing trusted external quality assurance of degree-granting higher education institutions, aren't they?

    It seems to me that the real issue is whether or not lesser known accreditors are holding the schools that they accredit to equivalent standards.
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    ASIC's primary recognition appears to be by the UK Immigration and Visas.

    CHEA includes them on a list of recognized international accreditors. They appear alongside the British Accreditation Council and the QAA.

    They are a QA operation. The word "accreditation" has different meaning in the UK. As has been explained elsewhere, a British university can "accredit" a college or tertiary institution. In those cases the accrediting university is typically the one awarding a degree for work completed elsewhere.

    Borrowing from ASIC, a good example would be the Priory Institute. They don't award academic degrees on their own. They have no degree granting authority. But, they are affiliated with ITT Dublin which does have degree granting authority in Ireland.

    Being ASIC accredited doesn't mean that the Priory can award degrees. It's just a QA check of their programs.

    Yes and no. In the U.S. accreditation takes on a more important role because it is what allows institutions to access Title IV funds. Additionally, many states now require that schools operating within those states to obtain accreditation or lose their "state approved" status within a set period of time.

    Additionally, a number of people have been charged with fraud for using unaccredited degrees in professional settings. So the issue goes beyond quality assurance. In the U.S., for the most part, accreditation is generally regarded as the primary test to determine if a school is "legitimate" or "fraudulent."

    In the UK that is not the case. Schools derive their degree granting authority in a process that is completely divorced from accreditation. Services like ASIC aim to fill a gap by funneling students, who want to study in the UK, into legitimate quality programs (hence the Visas and Immigration affiliation).

    ASIC and BAC are accrediting bodies. But the bulk of established British universities don't have accreditation because accreditation simply isn't needed. They derive their authority to grant degrees directly from the government.

    Personally, I think it should work the same way here. We are, to my knowledge, the only country where the state grants degree authority in a manner that is largely considered to be a mere formality while accreditation is largely considered what makes a degree "legit."

    In Canada provincial authority to grant degrees makes a Canadian university "legitimate." Here, we could give two hoots what the state says. What matters is the stamp of approval from a private entity. Backwards, yes. Irritating? For me it is. And incredibly confusing and convoluted for most outside the U.S.

    That's not really the issue here. ASIC is holding everyone to the same standard. The issue is that the UK schools that they accredit generally don't award degrees and ASIC doesn't claim to change or alter that position in any way.

    The example I've been using is of the Kensington College of Business which is accredited by ASIC. Despite this, they don't have degree granting authority. They never claim to. And ASIC never claims to confer upon them any special authority. Kensington provides courses. Complete them and you earn a credential awarded by the University of Chester.

    The University of Chester derives its degree granting authority from a Royal Charter. It doesn't need ASIC, or HLC, or any other external validation to make its degrees considered wholly legitimate within the UK.

    The problem is that U.S. based schools are trying to have the best of both worlds. AIU, and others, have only state approval to award degrees (no institutional accreditation). But they are heavily marketing ASIC accreditation.

    It's very clear that ASIC is not a substitute for institutional accreditation in the U.S. The question that I posed at the beginning of this is simply "Does having ASIC accreditation cause us to view an unaccredited school any more favorably than one that lacks said accreditation?" In a sense I believe it does. But that doesn't impact the utility (or lack thereof) of any credentials awarded by that school. It's just a matter of whether we view an unaccredited school as a total scam and diploma mill (i.e. send a check, get a degree) or a place where actual instruction takes place at a collegiate level.

    Even if the latter that doesn't absolve the place of further scrutiny. And it certainly doesn't mean it is "OK" to attend and we should all send our kids there. It's a thought experiment in a very grey area and in a hypothetical world where a person says "OK, so I'm willing to judge each unaccredited school on its own merits, how does ASIC affect that judgment."
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes- it can be more shades of grey than the fifty E.L. James wrote about - or Stephen Harper's hair. :smile:

    Here's another layer of complexity: At some of the ASIC-accredited schools, there exists another oft-misunderstood issue - programmatic accreditation. A few schools have ASIC plus programmatic accreditation, usually for business programs. Major accreditor in this case - ACBSP. I'm sure ACBSP holds all accreditation applicants to very high standards and its approval is not conferred lightly. It ensures that the accredited program(s) is/are very good indeed. But it is not a substitute for institutional accreditation, as it is known in the US, or any foreign equivalent. Nor does it have any effect on degree-granting authorization, including any non-standard variations thereof.

    For US schools, RA is required by ACBSP for program accreditation. Outside the US, a school must have what's termed as sufficient degree-granting authority in its own country. In some cases, this seems to include legal operation without mainstream recognition. Degree-granting authority? Yes, but with no, or limited, recognition of those degrees.

    One example: Horizons University, Paris. ASIC accreditation, plus ACBSP-accredited business programs - so they must be doing a lot of things right in business education. The school operates 100% legally, granting degrees without standard Government Ministry recognition. We've verified that. A French reader kindly contacted the Ministry for us. So - a school with two kinds of accreditation, yet without standard recognition of its degrees.

    What do you do? I guess that decision is different depending on circumstances. Will the degree take you where you want to go? Is there some compelling advantage to such a degree over alternatives? Decisions, decisions.

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2015
  5. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    Are you Nigerian?
  6. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    It's an interesting question. On the one hand, there is that missing link of institutional accreditation (or mainstream recognition of degree granting authority). On the other hand, ACBSP is USDOE recognized.

    Realistically, the typical US based employer doesn't know the difference. I've never seen an employer express a preference for ACBSP accreditation. The only time I see an employer express preference for AACSB is when it ties in to a licensing requirement for CPAs even then the hiring managers have begun to wiggle a bit more because, apparently, New York has been flexing a bit more on that specific requirement for other graduates of RA programs.

    But ultimately most would-be students draw a line in the sand as to what they will accept as far as a school's recognition. You could put an unaccredited school, say AIU, on your resume and likely go a ways before anyone ever questions it, depending upon your specific line of work and and if you work exclusively in the private sector.

    When you take licensing, government employment and tightly regulated private sector arenas (like nuclear power) out of the mix you end up with a pretty open range.

    I suppose if an employee was on the verge of getting sacked for having an unaccredited degree and they waved the ACBSP flag I would probably step in and try to mediate that to a gentler conclusion. But I also seldom scrutinize a school's programmatic accreditation due to the nature of the jobs I am hiring for.

    Is it a good idea? Maybe. Maybe one would be served well with a degree from Horizons, SMC or any of the other ACBSP accredited schools with questionable degree granting authority. To me, these ASIC schools are in a similar boat.

    For the U.S. based schools, a foreign student, I would imagine, can make a judgment call about them the same way we urge a student to do for Horizons or SMC. But for a U.S. based student to use a U.S. based school without institutional accreditation may put a ticking time bomb on your resume (to borrow a phrase).
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Indeed. That's the key point here (and in the other relevant thread) as I see it.

    BTW - "B.S.O.D. - TESC - In Progress." What degree is a B.S.O.D.? I always thought that was "Blue Screen of Death" (Windows Crash). :smile:

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2015
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    It's actually Organizational Leadership but my brain keeps substituting the word "Development" for "Leadership" because I work closely with my company's Organization Development department. So, updating that little typo.

    I've banked a goodly number of credits since I finished my first B.S. and I decided to go back and see if I can put them to use. Part of it is my own nagging discomfort that the world will turn on for-profit schools to the point where my education becomes useless (unlikely). But mostly I'm just an education junkie and I'd like the other piece of paper if I've earned it.
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I'm sure you'll earn your B.S.O.L. with flying colours - and hope you avoid the dreaded B.S.O.D. while doing so. :smile:

  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    So, better B.S.O.L. than S.O.L.?
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    'Way better, I'd say. Hey, it's a real degree, from a real school. At present, only abysmally low-end schools (or mills) confer the time-honoured S.O.L. designation upon their deserving public. :sad:

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2015
  12. ntzanza

    ntzanza New Member

    Your question is astonishing. Everybody can not be a Nigerian because he or she speaks english.
  13. ntzanza

    ntzanza New Member

    This is what confusion is all about. Abusing or using names of Universities without its consent becomes a challenge. Example is the Okija in Nigeria matter.
    The main university is Hawaii not Nig. For your information as to know the legal representatives of AIU go to their official website.
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    This is a non-answer answer.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I speak English. Can I be a Nigerian?
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Dem send you, ntzanza? Your story get k-leg. (Have you been sent to torment me, ntzanza? Your story is suspect.)

    Yes, English is the official language, but I'm told there are 546 languages in Nigeria. Pidgin is a popular - I might say indispensable - part of Nigerian culture. It's been my privilege to pick up a (very) little of this colourful and ingenious speech. If anybody's interested, here's a beginner's Nigerian Pidgin reference site, with great links. Beginner


    Na condition wey make crayfish bend. :smile:
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2015
  17. ntzanza

    ntzanza New Member

    The answer is in response of "mbwa shenzi" question. Are you mbwa shenzi ? who asked "Are you Nigerian?. Stop confusing yourself Johann.
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Yumyum. There's nothing like an internet squabble with an anonymous shill to make the week feel complete.:wave:
  19. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    FYI, your English isn't as good as you think it is.

    But seriously, just admit you're a shill. Are you paid? Are you a volunteer? Maybe you have a degree from AIU and are just very eager to prove to the world that it is legit? Tell us the story. Quit pretending because you're not fooling anyone.
  20. ntzanza

    ntzanza New Member

    Why are you insulting instead of developing a substantive argument? this indicates how wicked you could be. Do we speak your language? do you speak ours?. Why are you against institutions and universities?

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