what is really accredited?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by morleyl, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Frankie:

    I can bet if you are an employer you would be more interested in the guys experience that specific courses.

    Thats why I mentioned that the advisor/Mentor and student would go over the course list and determine what would be assessed by what method. They would then have a learning contract to track the process.

    The assignments or research papers would simply reflect that approach. The process could take a few months or even a year. It all depends on where the student is at when started.
     
  2. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Not if he presented his "courses" to me as earned academic qualifications when they were not.

    I would view him as a fraud and I would have security escort him from the building after telling him that he is not to apply to my company ever again.

    What exact methods of assessment would you view as acceptable in granting credit?


    "Research papers?" So that means that each course challenged in this manner would require the successful completion of an essay to obtain credit?
     
  3. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    Then how do you explain this statement:

     
  4. Frankie

    Frankie member

    It seems that he does not view St. Regis as a diploma mill. He seems to view it as an unaccredited university that means well.
     
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member



    And so, too, are you a "senior member." One gains this exhalted title by posting enough times. The quality (or redundancy) of said posts are not factored in.
    Ah, but you have.

    No, it does not. It comes down to effective standards and processes, and the verification and validation of such.
     
  6. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Not exactly correct. From WGU Student Hnadbok
    So a more correct statemnet would be that knoweldge equivalent to the level of knowledged gaind by attending x hours of class must be verified.

    Note: MANY schools have the option of challenging any or some of the required courses. You are then given credit for this, whihc is what WGU does as well as TESC, COSC, etc.
     
  7. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Well, it seem I am not the one pusing the troll now.. Again, I will address some issues in a common way.

    1. In respect to St. Regis, I am not in anyway affiliated with them in anyway. I said they seem or is good because their stated approach seems in line with other know programmes

    2. The term diploma mill is too loosely used and that was the real reason to start the discussion here. Where do you draw the line.

    3. In respect to assessment. I can speak from my own experience with my MSc with a regualr school in the UK. I have an assignment Mentor who directs me in the relevant subjects, when my assignment is finish he gives me kind of an okay and another professor who is assigned as examiner grades the paper and I would get a grade. When I say assessment, it will not be any low standard approach.

    4. I have clearly stated that to get credit or gain a degree, the person should be able to demonstrate they meet the requirements wether its credit based or not. Why do we keep going back this point. If a school including St. Regis does not follow this process then they are questionable.

    5. Honesty is always important regardless of process. If someone earn a degree by experience evaluation, they should say thats how they got it. The other person can then decide what to do from there.

    6. What is a Diploma Mill? my point is saying that even if a school ask for credit card and a fix fee that does not make them a mill automatically. If they do all the things that we discuss before awarding the degree then they would need to get paid anyway.

    I am a Computer Engineer by training and work, if I am hiring someone today, I want to make sure the person can perform their task. Honestly if they have a CCIE, I would prefer them over someone who only have a degree. So apart from going back to school, I think experience still play a big role in getting the job done. Of course some people get looked over because they do not have the Degree when HR looks at it. But the real hiring manager like myself would be more interested in the skills that the person has.
     
  8. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Well, it seem I am not the one pusing the troll now.. Again, I will address some issues in a common way.

    1. In respect to St. Regis, I am not in anyway affiliated with them in anyway. I said they seem or is good because their stated approach seems in line with other know programmes

    2. The term diploma mill is too loosely used and that was the real reason to start the discussion here. Where do you draw the line.

    3. In respect to assessment. I can speak from my own experience with my MSc with a regualr school in the UK. I have an assignment Mentor who directs me in the relevant subjects, when my assignment is finish he gives me kind of an okay and another professor who is assigned as examiner grades the paper and I would get a grade. When I say assessment, it will not be any low standard approach.

    4. I have clearly stated that to get credit or gain a degree, the person should be able to demonstrate they meet the requirements wether its credit based or not. Why do we keep going back this point. If a school including St. Regis does not follow this process then they are questionable.

    5. Honesty is always important regardless of process. If someone earn a degree by experience evaluation, they should say thats how they got it. The other person can then decide what to do from there.

    6. What is a Diploma Mill? my point is saying that even if a school ask for credit card and a fix fee that does not make them a mill automatically. If they do all the things that we discuss before awarding the degree then they would need to get paid anyway.

    I am a Computer Engineer by training and work, if I am hiring someone today, I want to make sure the person can perform their task. Honestly if they have a CCIE, I would prefer them over someone who only have a degree. So apart from going back to school, I think experience still play a big role in getting the job done. Of course some people get looked over because they do not have the Degree when HR looks at it. But the real hiring manager like myself would be more interested in the skills that the person has.
     
  9. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    I have no idea what you mean by "pusing the troll."

    What is a "know programme?" Can you give me some examples?
     
  10. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi:

    I mean Pushing the troll or dragging out the issues. In respect to programs or programmes, I meant TESC and the others.

    Again, Stated may not be practice but I cannot give a credible answer about practice since I do not have any experience with these schools..
     
  11. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Diploma mill: "An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless."

    —Webster’s Third New International Dictionary

    Diploma mills (or degree mills) are substandard or fraudulent “colleges” that offer potential students degrees with little or no serious work. Some are simple frauds: a mailbox to which people send money in exchange for paper that purports to be a college degree. Others require some nominal work from the student but do not require college-level course work that is normally required for a degree.

    http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/diploma_mill.html

    If it were my company you would be the ex-"real hiring manager."
     
  12. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    Heh. :p
     
  13. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    So again, you miss my point, I did not say I would hire someone with knowingly fraudulent degree. If you would fire me for hiring someone simply because they have good experience then I think I have a bigger problem to address.

    None of what I suggested fits the definition of the diploma mill that you just state.

    1. The definition says, no serious or very little college level work as is required for a degree.

    a. This would apply to someone who buys a degree without their knowledge been verified in the first place. If the person has years of valuable experience and can do a portforlio assessment thats a lot of work.

    We did agree that verification is primary so we do not need restate definitions here. As I have said before TESC allows you to write portfolios for an entire degree, so if potfolio assessment is not considered serious work then TESC is a Diploma Mill then. Writing a research paper is very serious work so if your potential employee says they got a degree using this method you should be fair to them.
     
  14. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    Writing about a manager at a nuclear power plant using a degree mill, morleyl wrote:

    http://www.online-college.info/article872.html
     
  15. Frankie

    Frankie member

    But you would hire someone with a knowingly unaccredited degree providing that they have experience? Correct?

    Ahhh then you completely agree with this definition then?

    Diploma mill: "An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless."

    —Webster’s Third New International Dictionary

    Portfolio development, challenge exams and other aspects of prior learning assessment are serious assignments.

    Have you ever developed a portfolio? It is not easy and you must demonstrate college level learning in presenting it.

    The fact that the regional accrediting office has allowed TESC, COSC and Excelsior to keep their accredited status is a clear indication that their prior learning assessment programs are valid and acceptable.

    When did I state that research papers that end with an essay or examination is not a fair means of assessment?

    If I felt that way I would have to condemn the British tertiary educational system.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2003
  16. galanga

    galanga New Member

    full of beans

    Saint Regis, through its Branford Academy division, offered to award an AA degree with a 2.8 GPA based on a multiple choice test completed with so many wrong answers that 75% of pigeons taking the test by pecking on test forms would have outscored the submitted test.

    That makes it an enterprise that awards degrees based on payment of fees, not on demonstration of mastery of subjects.

    Do you get this? Do you understand it? Pigeons, man, pigeons. 75% of the pigeons in the park would have received offers of AA degrees from Saint Regis University's Branford Academy. Is that sufficiently clear? This means that your comment I said they seem or is good is... wacko.

    G
     
  17. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    WGU is accredited because their competency-based-degrees do ensure that the normally accepted graduation requirements are meet by the graduate before they receive their degree. If you look at the required competencies for the various competency-based-degrees and compare it to the credit oriented definition of the same degree, I believe that you will find a complete correspondence. It appears to me that it is simply a friendlier view of the same thing that the "big-three" have been doing for years.

    For example, I note that the lower division courses are still a required competency for WGU degrees, unlike the degree mill Kennedy-Western University that seems to always require 5-7 classes of upper division work before you get their worthless diploma bestowed on you.

    BTW Rich, you're absolutely correct but must admit that I have a weak spot for trolls. :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2003
  18. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Somehow, someone is questioning what I am saying and confirming what I am saying in the same breath. Again, I will address all at once.

    1. In respect to hiring someone with an unaccredited degree, thats not what I was saying. I meant experience only. But since you put it that way, if the degree is legal I would not hold it against the person. Of course if both has experience I would take the one with a credible degree.

    2. In respect to someone running a Nuclear plan this brings up an interesting perspective or questions? Could the person function as the manager of that plant without an actual degree? Secondly, I do not support people who falsify their qualification. I have said many times that their knowledge should be verified thorougly with assignments and portfolios etc etc.

    3. Assignments are probably more useful than portfolio in a lot of cases. Instead of digging up on a project you did 10 years ago, you could just develop a paper to demonstrate your knowledge of the subjects. I am from the Caribbean and so therefore, I always like the UK approach. We always had to do essay type questions in High School and College and I think its much better than multiple choice.

    4. Again with St. Regis, I am going from what their webiste says and you can see for yourself. If you can cheat and get a diploma from them its not for me to answer..

    I am not proposing or endorsing any backdoor way of getting a degree anywhere. I am just saying that people should be fair about how they classify some unaccredited schools. Do not ask me to name any now, just a general state about preception. Secondly, use facts not hearsay.
     
  19. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Unaccredited schools are not necessarily illegal but due to the lack of regulated and recognized standards the degree in itself is worthless.

    The exception to this rule is the following. Lets say that you run into a well-meaning unaccredited school that offers legitimate coursework that leads to a degree. That degree alone is still from an unregulated school but here is what you can do.

    If you have truly gained knowledge and legitimate learning outcomes from the unaccredited program. You could apply to take PLA challenge exams from an accredited school such as Athabasca University

    Challenge for Credit Process

    http://www.athabascau.ca/html/depts/registry/challproc.htm

    The challenge for credit process allows students to demonstrate they have acquired a command of the general subject matter, including intellectual and/or other skills that would normally be found in a university-level course.

    You could not transfer credits from the unaccredited school as it is unaccredited but I see nothing barring the right to challenge for credit.

    If someone were to go through this process to earn an accredited degree and came clean about the unaccredited degree; demonstrating that they did actual serious work for the degree. I would be inclined to give them a chance.

    Besides religious reasons there is no real excuse for having an unaccredited degree. In my observation, people who settle for unregulated unaccredited degrees do so for a reason.
     
  20. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Have you sent your bank account number to the Nigeria prince yet? Better hurry because from what the email says, you can earn many thousands of dollars for absolutely no risk! The point being, you're a fool if you believe the stories told by a con-artist that is trying to get you to part with your money. If you are smart enough to already understand that then perhaps SRU is your hidden agenda?
     

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