what is really accredited?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by morleyl, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Maybe it is not fair to call them a fraud, maybe they are stupid? Only a fool would believe that he could receive a degree based solely on a resume review and a fee being paid.

    No, they gain credit by demonstrating a level of knowledge that matches the learning outcomes of a challenged course. Simply having experience in the field does not suffice.

    The problem is diploma mills do not verify what you have truly learned.

    I think legitimate degree holders losing job opportunities to fraudsters or idiots with phony degrees is a problem that needs to be addressed in addition to the problems you have mentioned.

    These people are right. An unaccredited degree is not necessarily bogus but it is unregulated and subject to abuses without a safecheck process to prevent such abuse.

    Other CHEA, US DOE, GAAP accredited school/degrees are regulated, recognized and safeguarded by the accrediting agencies.
  2. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Saying that then its not a level playing field with someone having one of these degrees. First of all, yours is RA accredited and theirs is not. People will question these all the time since the school is not known, so its hard to see how they could have equal footing.

    If they are not qualified for the job, I am sure they will be fired sooner or later. That means if they get the job its mostly because of their experience in the first place.

    What I am saying, is that if a person can demonstrate overall knowledge in a specific field then they could be awarded a credential. The problem we all agree is how this is verified. The credit system seem to put some limitation on this approach.. If the same person could succeed without any further education then why would they need to go back to school. That is the center of my question.

    I do not support the fraud stuff and I do not think a person is stupid if they are confident that they have the knowledge to succeed. They are stupid if they do not research the subject before making such decisions.

    Everything evolves overtime. Years ago people could cross into the US from Canada without much scrutiny. now that has change because a few terrorist have used this as loophole to come here. So there will always be bad people in everything done on earth. I am sure if you investigate there are fraud stuff happening at traditional schools too. that does not mean those schools are bad, just some bad people who use the system.

    I do not think Harvard will be offering a degree for $1000 anytime soon either. I personally think its mostly because of revenue not necessarily education standards.
  3. Frankie

    Frankie member

    What standard / program / system etc...are you a proponent of?
  4. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I have already made several suggestions, I do not need to re-state those.

    The bottomline, is whenever this is done the standard should be upheld.
  5. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Do you believe that the current "portfolio assessment" methods offered by TESC and Excelsior are flawed? How so exactly?
  6. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I was not saying that anything is flawed. I just suggest there maybe other ways to assess experience and knowledge. There are others ways actually. Capella and WGU use other ways. So there is no fixed way to make assessments.

    The goal is always to maintain that the person has the knowledge and abilities with the relevant task.

    There is a lot of stuff that I knew before that I may not know today, that does not mean I did not know and that they did not help to make me better at other things.
  7. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Such as?
  8. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    This is incorrect. A degree has graduation requirements. At least 120 semester credits for a Bachelor's degree. If someone only has 119 credits then they haven't earned the degree. If someone hasn't passed one of the required courses then they haven't earned the degree. Your assertion that all that is required is overall knowledge in a specific field is ridiculous. It is not quantifiable. It is degree mill speak. There are graduation requirements for a degree. Perhaps you need to check the definition of requirement?

    Your assertion that if someone can succeed in a job then it indicates that they should have a earned degree is unfounded and meaningless. That is something that can't be verified or quantified for the general case. It would be different from job to job even in the same field. It is not a graduation requirement. It is mixing apples and oranges. The "center of your question" is seemingly irrational and poorly formulated.
  9. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    well, I am not going to argue much more on this subject because it seem people have on blinders. Here are some clarification that may help.

    1. WGU offers a competence route to get a degree, this does not require 120 credit and they are fully accredited. In fact they are the only school with multiple RA accreditation. It seem the RA agencies are more forward thinking than some on here that defend them.

    2. The use of experience to give degree type credentials is used in the Uk and other countries via professional bodies

    3. This route is not for everyone and it does not mean they have to meet all the requirements from experience but that experience will play a big role in the process.

    4. The argument seem to be advanced that if someone does not take a college class they are dumb and can only succed at one specific job is very irrational and prejudice.

    I can use an easy example, look at Bill Gates, he choose not to go to college and he is successful in a very complex field too. I am sure he may have a few honorary PhDs by now. I am assuming here.

    In the end, its quite clear that people here believe the concept is Diploma mill related. My position in the first place was that you need to review the approaches on a case by case basis and not just put all in one bundle.
  10. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Once again an interesting post that seems to have little to do with the actual discussion in this thread. What I find especially interesting is the four point "clarification". I don't believe anyone has disagreed with the first three points. In fact, they have been repeatedly pointed out to you. The fourth point is your statement, not ours. We have stated there ARE current programs that evaluate and award credit for prior learning. They are RA and relatively inexpensive. They seem to be effective and have been utilized by many people. What has repeatedly been ASKED of you is in what way are they deficient and how exactly do you propose resolving any issues? I have seen no real reply. I keep hoping for a real discussion!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2003
  11. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    My answer was the idea of a research type degree.
  12. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Those already exist...they are called doctorates I believe.
  13. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    My discussion was focussed on first degree level not PhD.
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Trying to confuse honorary PhDs with earned degrees is an irrelevancy. Why does Bill Gates deserve a earned degree? If there was a degree called "Starting and Building a Software Company in the last Part of the Twentieth Century" then I would have to agree that such a degree specialized for the exact knowledge that Bill Gates has exhibited has been earned by Bill Gates. Has Bill Gates earned a degree in Biochemistry? I think not. There are too many graduation requirements in that field that he has not mastered. Exactly what degree do you believe that Bill Gates has earned?
  15. Frankie

    Frankie member

    You are being a little vague. How would your research undergraduate degree work? What coursework would be performed? How many exams would be taken?
  16. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Let me answer too questions at the same time.

    1. In respect to Bill Gates, I am not saying that he has done enough to earn a degree or that he hasn't. Obviously he would need to submit to some evaluation process. But I would bet that the issues involve in writing software and developing a company could help to get credit. We would not know until he submit to that process. he could also chose to use TESC, no problem with that. In respect to biochemistry, I do not think he would need to get a degree in that area or would it make sense either

    2. In respect to course work I can answer in different ways but the way I think that would satisfy your thinking based on a credit system is this. The student apply to college, the college assigns a mentor based on the major.. The mentor would determine the combination of activities that could satisfy degree requirements. One of the ways, I think can be used is to develop a research paper in some areas that are relevant to the major. Some areas he may write portfolio since he/she may have a lot of evident training and experience and then others may be exams like brainbench etc..

    Several UK bodies use the research paper approach. City and Guilds and the BCS use this for their Graduate Diploma which is accepted as honors degree level in the UK. That same person could use those credential to get an H1-B visa to come to the US and take your job. Guess what, they have experience and a recognized credential.
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Consider this when arguing with a troll: will the next thing you say (or the one after that) change what he or she says? Of course not. You don't really expect this person to agree with you, do you?

    The degree mill method of selling degrees based upon a resume and a credit card number is well-documented, with nothing new to say. That some troll wants to continue arguing the alternative only causes two things: the responders refuting everything the troll says, and the troll making up new (and contradictory and nonsensical and....) stuff to keep the flame stoked. But nothing new is learned.

    From someone who's argued with far too many of them....
  18. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Hey Rich...I appreciate your position. The fact that you are so loved on the "alt.education.distance" group would prove that you have put some less then wonderful trolls in their place.

    But let me ask you...what do you think of Morley's above quoted suggestion?

    The concern I would have is that there does not seem to be a degree outline of courses requirements.
  19. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I understand that you are senior members and I have not changed my position in anyway. I have in no way defended diploma mill approach to granting degrees.

    I have just said that it is possible to get a degree based on your experience period. I then explain that I am not proposing because I am in the process of starting a school. I am argue purely based on concepts. It seem you place me in position of trying to justify diploma mills and thats wrong logic.

    All I am saying is if someone today start a school , just like starting a new bank and use this approach as the basis for granting degrees in general. I am not saying they will just take a resume and credit card. I have said that they will need to document the process thoroughly and ensure the person has all the requirements.

    I have also said that the credit based system has some limitations in the case of adults and WGU does not use a credit based system as example.

    I have not gone all over the place and I have agreed with several persons on here. So I am not sure whats the problem. It seem people just do not want to admit that this is a valid way to get a degree or credential. If they admit, it would seem like they are agreeing with the Diploma Mills.

    It all comes down to Honesty. Whats wrong with the genuine guy who does this? Thats always my main question
  20. Frankie

    Frankie member

    How should this be assessed? Even a research degree student would have to complete some assignment?

    Before I could judge the validity of the guys degree. I would have to know the following. What courses would he take? What assignments would he perform? Would coursework include modular essays or yearly exams?

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