what is really accredited?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by morleyl, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Frankie

    Frankie member

    It seems that Morley is more concerned with how credits are issued via prior learning from accredited colleges.

    He seems to believe that it is not terribly different from how the mills do it and reformation so to speak is necessary.

    Am I right Morley?
  2. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Frankie:

    I think you miss an important point about proof. The resume would state that you managed a housing development project. The resume just summarize the task. The portfolio or supporting letters and documents would prove the knowledge.

    So I do not expect someone to get a degree solely based on whats in a resume. It has to be expanded later and thats why I beleive in the learning contract that would carryout that process.

    I used the term resume because people tend to feel once you use that word, it means a diploma mill approach. but I think it can be useful to ascertain where the person is at the outset.

    I am sure some traditional university use a resume to look at the students background.
  3. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Fair enough...however, diploma mills will grant the degrees based on a resume and the fee being paid. Case in point!

    Buying a fake MBA for a nonexistent person from Almeda College and University




    Please read all three links in the order that they appear. Also remember that unaccredited schools have no regulatory agency to answer too, many one time legitimate unaccredited schools have trodden down this path and their is noting to prevent an unnaccredited school to go down this path.

    In part yes...but more is needed then a CV to earn credit.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2003
  4. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I guess some call this a troll but it comes back to my original questions and curiousity. I understand that some schools are not accredited by known angencies and that degree mills have abused the concept of prior learning.

    What happens to a school who genuinely tries to use this approach?

    Again, I am not sure about SRU status etc but their website at least state that they follow a TESC type approach. If they are not following that in practice then obviously thats wrong.

    It seem most people here does accept that someone can get a degree (meaning first degree) using the portfolio approach but they get nervous about unaccredited schools offering that approach.
  5. Frankie

    Frankie member

    I have not called you a troll nor will I call you a troll.

    Here is where accreditation comes in. TESC is "regulated" by the accreditor. They would not risk losing their reputation, status in academic circles and accreditation by selling degrees to people who simply email a resume.

    An unaccredited school has no one to answer too. They have no where near the standing an accredited school would have which means they do not have much to lose if they cheat the system.

    Accreditation bestows credibility; credibility is what it comes down too. I have seen too many unaccredited schools cheat to take such a risk. At least you know you are safe with TESC.
  6. AWN

    AWN New Member

    I am not going to get into specifics to prove whether or not they are following a process.
    A lot of times I disagree with some of the things said here about state approval, legitimacy, utility etc. etc. however, please listen to the senior members advices' on this one.

    In the case you are talking about, I don't think there is any reputable accreditation or oversight involved.
  7. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I do understand the lack of upfront recognition but if you are new out of the block, you would need to operate for a while before you would get formal accreditation anyway.

    So again it goes back to an honest person that really wants to offer degrees this way. this is probably what I was getting at all along.

    Are we willing to give such a group a chance to prove themsleves?
  8. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    OK Morley, here's your chance to answer a direct question. To which group are you referring? Don't bother with "hypothetical" cases, they are a waste of time. Just answer the question specifically.
  9. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Good, i am refering to any group of academics that setup a school for this specific purpose. I am honestly do not know of any or refering to any specific person. I have no affiliation whatsoever.

    As you can see, I do believe in this prior learning concept but I also uphold high standards of validating such.
  10. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    You have just won the award for being the biggest waste of my time during the past week. You will be receiving your prize in the mail sometime in the next several months. As an additional bonus prize you have been officially entered into my permanent killfile. It's a small but select group of people and I'm hoping that you'll enjoy the company. You're all so very much alike I think you'll get along famously (please envision Sartre's "No Exit")
  11. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Jack:

    well, I guess you are one less person to debate with then. I really do not see your point here.
  12. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    How about we apply your line of thinking to another area? I want to open a bank. I have owned a hamburger stand and I KNOW business! I can't get any kind of insurance because I don't have a track record. None of the oversight agencies will approve me. Won't you give me a chance? I have a very nice web site that SAYS I will safeguard your money. I have a lot of new and innovative ideas! I promise a 20% return on all deposits. Why not deposit $10,000 or $20,000 to give me a chance? Like SRU in the past I have done things that were dishonest, but that is all over. When can I come pick up your deposit?
  13. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I think its a poor example. Simply because you are saying once bad always bad and also that maybe there will never be a new bank
  14. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Maybe I must be the most naive person around but why do these mill operators are seen as so evil and just want to take your money? I would think if they spend the time to improve their process they could make more money by been recognized and accepted by the mainstream. So they could either be evil, short sighted or not aware that they are bad.

    Thats the way I see it..
  15. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Because they offer a credential to any fraud willing to pay for it while people like Dave, Jack and Rich have to work to earn their credentials the honest way.

    Naive hiring employers would put fraudsters and hard working honest people on a level playing field when the fraudsters should not even be in the game.

    That makes diploma mills "evil."

    A diploma mill by nature is a scam operation. I have never heard of a degree mill going legitimate. Have you?

    They sell degrees based on unverified information. How could they not know that they are doing is wrong?
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The point is that you say almost nothing and you don't directly address the issues. You have still not explained what you're proposing. I know that you listed 5 steps but you never explained what was different about your 5 steps than RA schools that accept portfolio for credit! The things that you have said in other posts that are different from the RA accepted procedures, like resume-for-degree, you then back-pedal on and say that you never meant that.

    All that would be more palatable but then you keep coming back with these hopeless undercurrent themes that people here need to be saved from jumping to conclusions, saved from being illogical in regards to unaccredited schools, and in the end this thread will somehow create a school that can somehow ensure credits for prior learning without burdening the student.

    You appear to me to be either a troll or someone that is associated with a degree mill, like SRU, that is here to push a hidden agenda.
  17. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    I think you clearly are being naive. I believe my example is the perfect analogy. There are new banks all the time where I live. Once a bank is tainted with fraud there is little chance of success. So, yes, "once bad always bad".

    Your previous point that all schools starting as unaccredited is correct. So when a school is brand new we have to look at things other than accreditation. What is the history and reputation of those starting the school? Do they seem to be moral and ethical? Do they have the resources to eventually become accredited?

    MIGS had a shot at it, but wasted it. Northcentral U was able to make the grade. It is possible, but not easy. It is appropriate to be skeptical unless there is evidence to believe the school can withstand the pressure.

    As Frankie mentioned I don't believe there is any degree mill that has ever been able to become legitimate. That is not to say that we aren't seeing innovation and new schools all the time.
  18. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    First of all, I am sure a lot of people who may potentially use these services are not as aware as you are, so maybe its not fair to say they are the fraud.

    As we have discussed on this thread earlier, there are people who are fairly qualified for a degree based on the hard work of their own experiences.

    You made a point about these other guys feeling bad that they earn their degree the hard way, while someone else buy a degree within a few weeks and on the same playing field. If the the school does not verify knowledge, I agree with you 100%. however, if they really ensure that you know what you are doing and the graduate is honest about it, then whats the problem.

    I think these guys should be more worried about their jobs going offshore, or people with government subsidized degrees coming to the US to take their jobs than a few people with unrecognized degrees.

    I did a fellowship in India sometime ago and the lecturers with PhD were either riding a bicycle or taking the bus. In fact I remembered talking to a security gaurd and he had a Degree in business.

    So if are worried about someone else on the same playing field as you are then you will need to worry about those who have good degree and can live on much less.

    What I am getting at is honesty. regardless of how you earn your degree, if you are honest about it then the field will fall in place. So I get the impression of all these attacks is mostly motivated by the so-called class oriented people. You need to have an RA degree, a NA degree is good but not as good, if its totally unaccredited then its totally bogus.
  19. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Morley would you trust a bank that has a CEO with a history of financial fraud and professional dishonesty?

    Exactly. If a person has a history of quastionable or outright unlawful practices in the education providing field...why would we trust them with our money and trust their ability to provide a worthwhile education?
  20. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    first of all, I did not say anyone should go and get a degree from anyone who is fraudulent. If someone goes to jail and change their ways then they should be given a chance to change.

    I was not even focusing on people changing, I was focus on someone starting out with this method and good intention. Why you always seem to pick the most extreme cases.

    In my religion, I believe that people can change and they should be forgiven if they do. No need to discuss about money in bank etc. If its my friend own the bank and he had a bad past but trying to chane, I would support him

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