what is really accredited?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by morleyl, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Hmm so after all these posts pretty much everything you've said could be stated as:

    1. You find current PLA/Testing as inadequate because of cost and red tape.

    However cost can be under $3,000 and a degree can be completed under 6 months.

    2. You support new innovative ideas.

    Hard to argue with. You, however, make no attempt to differentiate con artists/degree mills from legitimate endeavors.

    3. You keep vaguely pointing to SRU as an example and mentioning degree mills as an alternative.

    It seems either you are having a great deal of difficulty really saying anything. Or, the SRU references are the whole point.
  2. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Umm because they sell degrees for cash? That seems like an excellent reason to me.

    Why does anyone need to discredit diploma mills that sell degrees for cash? They have already done that themselves. How are you or anyone else going to "make them change"? If laws, ethics, and morality can't do it, I doubt a few posts will have any effect.

    So now you are saying you are arguing from a devil's advocate stand point and NOT just discussing these ideas? You never come out and state any clear points so how can any one debate you?
  3. AWN

    AWN New Member

    Firstly, I partially understand what you are saying, but repeating it over and over is not going to make any difference. Say what you have to say once, maybe twice and move on.

    Secondly, the part where you are talking about assessment for life experience, as far as I know only the Big 3 have been doing this the legal, legitimate way, that is they all have recognized accreditation and they all require documented portfolio preparation and submission.

    Finally, no other school has been doing that on par with the Big 3. Anyone else who has claimed to be doing that is either fooling the prospective student and/or doing it at a substandard level.
  4. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Well, I think my position should have been clear by now. This is suppose to be DL forum so I am assuming that its mostly adults and they would want to leverage their experience to earn a credential unless they are changing their profession totally.

    I am saying that it is possible to award a degree equivalent credential based on a persons demonstrated knowledge and competence.

    I could argue this from different perspective but I mostly want to focus on the possibility of getting a credential totally based on past experience. The arguments that are used to describe degree mills in cases are not fair to some schools.

    1. They charge a fee which is fix for the whole degree.

    Are they suppose to give their service free. If their scheme is to provide a full degree based on knowledge then a fix fee makes sense. If you had to take extra classes then maybe thats a separate issue which means the cost could vary. I do not think this is a credible way to spot a diploma mill.

    2. They give the degree based on a resume/CV.

    I personally believe this where a person should prove that they really have the knowledge they claim to have. But suppose they ask the student to sign a legal binder saying the resume is accurate. This means the student would break the agreement and defualt on the degree if they lied. If you cheat in a real school its the same thing.

    The other point is that resumes are used everyday to seek jobs. some employers verify the information and some do not. but the panel interview does help to prove how competent the person is in the field. In fact earlier I mentioned that this was a good option as part of a degree process.

    3. They require you to do little or no work.

    If you already have the knowledge what do you need to do. just provide the proof and you are done. The portfolio process seem like a lot of work to me. remembering what you did 10 years ago is not easy.


    So what I was hoping for is more focus on a process that could make the adult learner go to a really accredited school and not a fake one.

    If someone can get a degree from an RA school for $1000 to $3000 within a reasonable time, then the Diploma mill would be in trouble. Of course I am not encouraging people to be lazy either but at least give them a way to represent their knowledge. City and Guilds in the UK does have a good example of that.

    In respect to SRU, I just mentioned them as an example. Since they are one of the known controversial schools.
  5. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Hmm these statements are some how familiar! Degree Mills are not put down because they charge a fee but because that is their only REAL requirement. Do they have you send a resume or other non-verified documents as part of their con? Sure.

    The Big Three already offer a RA degree for under $3,000 that many if not most adults could complete in under 6 months. Is there some question about that? Have you seen Lawrie's site? Degree Mills will always exist because they offer something for nothing. Well, almost nothing $100 to $800.

    SRU is not a school and there is little controversy about them. They are a degree mill that misrepresents what they are to con people out of money. Are they somewhat skilled at it? Sure.

    Again we are back at the beginning. You are questioning currently available programs but not offering anything better. You vaguely ask if degree mills might an option and, yep, SRU gets mentioned again.

    Should we be open to new ideas or innovations? Without a doubt! Should we demand them to come from a source with some kind legitimacy? Yes! Is it ever reasonable to believe a con job degree mill like SRU will ever be legitimate? Nope!
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Give up what, exactly?

    It appears to me that what you're proposing is that degree-by-resume should be a valid method. The answer is no it is not, at least not in any schools that I know about. That is the degree mill way. You have proposed nothing that would magically turn it into a valid method.

    If you're saying that because portfolio-for-credit is widely accepted then resume-for-degree is the inevitable next step then you're just making a prediction. I believe that you're prediction is wrong.

    Although I must admit that you write unclearly so that what you're really trying to say is always in doubt. This is partial definition of a "double talker". The con-artist (as an example of a double-talker) uses this so that the receiver of the communication can read what they want to read. It also allows the double talker to more easily contradict their own words later.

    No reasons given that SRU is bad? I guess no reasons that you can agree with! LOL How about selling degrees without requiring proof of necessary knowledge? How about lying about accreditation? LOL

    Spoken like a true con-artist! Hammering on your favorite argument that everyone else must be paralyzed in their decision making because of lack of analysis. While you are the only one capable of logical thought and deduction. You attempt to twist the burden of who needs to prove what to show that SRU is a degree mill. The truth is that one need not prove that the SRU graduate is not qualified as you falsely assert. All that really need be proven is that SRU has not required proof of qualification for at least one of their graduates before bestowing the degree. You are either a twisty word troll or a defender of fraud, my friend.

    You are going to turn degree mills into real schools? I truly wish you luck if that is your real goal because you're going to really need it. :D

    Okay, where's your facts? Let's see an example of a resume that would prove that someone has all the knowledge required to pass all the classes required for a degree. Or something similar to what you seem to be proposing.
  7. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

  8. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    My manager at the place I used to work had a Doctorate in something called "Quality" :confused: from SRU. He would send me emails criticizing my "NON-STANDERD" spelling. :eek:
  9. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    well what can I say. Am I so vague?

    Maybe I sould go and take a writing class because somehow, you all seem to miss my real points.

    I am not double talking or anything. I do not see how I intend to make a diploma mill into a real school. I am sure there are schools that started in a questionable way but improve over time too.

    The issue I was debating is why you seem to accept that TESC can get you a degree by portfolio assessment only but if another school offer this as a wholistic method you say they are diploma mill? no one has answered this question up to this point.

    we all agree that extensive proof is required to get credit for specific subjects so there is not debate there. So wether its a resume or not, the person whould need to provide some means of proving that they are competent.

    I think I was clear on that issue. I was just questioning some of the criterias you use to determine what is a diploma mill or not. Thats a different issue.

    Is the method used by TESC the same as WGU? no. Thats my point, accredited are coming up with new ways as we speak, so who say there is no change? Capella is also diifferent in some ways too. so within the accredited world there are changes.

    You guys seem to zero in on my reference to SRU and I do not have facts from you that say they are bad. You need to educate me, I am the outsider here and I am not familiar with everything about them.

    In the end lets be honest, we do not have to beat the subject to death.
  10. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I am concern when people keep saying that I am defending fraud.

    Whats wrong with the following steps?

    1. Student submit resume for review (meaning detailed application with experience and training)

    2. Student conditional accepted and develop learning plan

    3. Student submit portfolio for the required subjects with proof of experience and training (this could include challenge exams - brainbench etc) - Note that some evidence may cover several subjects at the same time.

    4. Areas of weakness covered with class, directed independent study or exams

    5. Final review and confering of an award. this review could include a panel oral review.

    So the question, is this approach wrong? if not which school is doing this today? Thats probably what I should ask.

    You mentioned you know of one person that graduated from SRU without proof, do you know if they have improved since? By the way, if this person is not qualified in the area, are they not commiting fraud by providing misleading information?
  11. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    You're wrong. I answered this question myself several days ago. The answer is this: the TESC portfolio assessment method has been found to be acceptable by the relevant Regional Accreditation agency because TESC is clear and consistent about just what the process is. The process is clear, consistent and obviously requires a standard level of achievement in the given area of study. Diploma mills such as SRU (and there are many others) will not tell you anything about their assessment method. This is mainly because they use NO assessment method. You just pay the money and they mail the diploma. How much more of an explanation do you need? If you have questions about the methods used by a specific school then name that school. By the way, speaking of unanswered questions, people in this thread have been asking you questions from the beginning. You've answered hardly any of them. I myself have asked you at least half a dozen questions and I don't think you've answered one yet. This is one of the reasons that no one believes you when you say you have no unstated agenda. You're too slippery to be believed.
  12. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Please describe what you see is the difference between the above description and one of the places that fall into your category of "widely accepted" portfolio for credit establishments.

    SRU was a degree mill a few months back. Why don't you prove to me that they are no longer a degree mill today?

    The SRU graduate would be commiting fraud in the situation that you describe if they were claiming a degree based on their SRU diploma. It is irrelevant whether or not they are otherwise qualified in the area. Perhaps you don't understand the definition of fraud? It simply means that someone is pretending to be something that they are not. If someone is pretending to have a degree from a degree mill then they are being a fraud.
  13. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    hi Jack:

    Can you restate your questions, I will surely answer to clear things up.

    I just did a search on SRU website and saw this about their assessment method. Thats what I refered to before. If they are not truthful, I can't help. I do not work for them or anything like that


    I am not slippery, just trying to understand the subject and whats the best way to help some of my own friends. Do not throw the oregon list at me because thats just one state with different laws. a degree that could be legal in California is not legal in Oregon. I understand that current schools have very good programmes in this area but cost is still a factor. Maybe my question is could they make the process more efficient to save on cost? Like I know, Capella accepts brainbench test as part of the portfolio process. so make it efficient to prove your skills. If I can develop a complex software application from scratch, why do I need to do an exam for that. I can just document the process and get several credits.
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    There are certain classes that are accepted as required for certain degrees. These classes are called the "graduation requirements". If someone has satisfactorily shown that they have acquired the knowledge necessary to pass these classes then it can be said that this person has satisfied the graduation requirements and therefore have earned the degree.

    Now I ask YOU AGAIN, how can a resume-for-degree prove that all the necessary graduation requirements have been satisfied?
  15. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    No. The burden is yours. You said no one answers your questions when they really have been answered, then you ask me to go through the entire thread and pull out every question? Why don't YOU re-read the thread and pull out the questions. All this strongly suggests that you're not really reading the responses people are making to your posts. How rude.
  16. AWN

    AWN New Member

  17. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    In respect to this resume thing, maybe I should use the term application profile. This would give details of the persons overall background in more details than the resume you use to apply for a job.

    Graduation requirements woud be ultimately made by presenting proof of the knowledge. The resume or application would only say that person can qualify in a specific area. For example they may have done a technical writing class at a local university but to get credit for english or something they would need to supply a sample report from work etc.. The resume would list the class but may not list the contents.

    In respect to answering questions, I did not mean to be rude. I am sorry if I have overlooked some by the way. Maybe the reasons, I ignored was because people seem to express a lot of assumptions about my motivation. again, I would say I have none. I literally got interested in this area about 4 months ago when I ran into some article on the internet. I then start researching the whole area. Of course with the current downsizing trend, I had friends who happen to need help with this type of education path too. I am regular person with a regular job thats just curious.

    The angle I look at things from is that we need to be open minded. If I had a child leaving high school, I would try my best to get them in college and the best if possible. I would not tell them to wait ten years and do a resume. So I do understand the education stuff but in respect to those who already achieve stuff in life what other options are there?

    Again its cultural in terms of how people are recognized. In other countries, professional exams and experience can be equated to degree level credential, so they do not have the limitation as here.
  18. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi AWN:

    That was my point too. They do state that they follow a reasonable process. Do we know for sure that they are not following such process? If the accreditation is reputable, then making reports would put them up for accreditation withdrawal. The key is to provide facts.
  19. Frankie

    Frankie member

    You can sign notarized affidavits out of your wazoo that state your CV is accurate, it can still be falsified.

    How does the school awarding the degree verify that you actually have the knowledge reflected in the CV?

    Answer: they cannot and do not verify it. It is foolish and unrealistic to rely on the "honour system" when dealing with such matters. No legitimate university would do this in a million years.
  20. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Interesting. You seem to not understand anything that has been written in this thread. SRU has stated on their web page they sell degrees and professorships. They have no legitimate accreditation of ANY kind.

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