VAE encore and encore !

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Peaceforall, Oct 20, 2005.

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  1. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Some more rectifications

    It is not accurate to say that the VAE documents should be in French. According to Paris-Dauphine, a prestigious French public university it should be in a "language understood by the jury." Accordingly it is not mentioned in French code. Now French public universities are allowed to have courses in English...Not mentioning the private HEC, where a large part of the courses are in English like at Bocconi in Italy.

    Also nowhere in the "Loi de modernisation sociale", which codifies the VAE process, it is said that the candidate should be in person at the jury interview. It means that it can be done by phone, webcam, other electronic or traditional way of communication.

    It is logic when you know that in the US indictments are often done through video conferencing...
     
  2. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    To Breizhou

    Etes vous Breton à la tête dure LOL ? Moi je suis un suisse à la lenteur bien connue...
     
  3. Breizhou

    Breizhou New Member

    LOL !

    Well you seem like a very knowledgeable young man (although not very peaceful :) and I could probably start a pissing contest with you. But you seem like the type of guy with a lot of free time and very few friends so im just going to end this discussion here. I hope you have fun defending the most laughable school in France. Oh and if people are actually interested in going through the VAE process at a reputable university I'd be happy to help.


    Merci pour ton aide mais quand j'aurais besoin d'un suisse pour me donner des cours de français, j'en ferais la demande.
     
  4. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Robert de Sorbon is a diploma mill, not a French university. Sorry but I doubt that I'll forget that anytime soon.

    I don't really have an opinion on the the acceptance of degrees bestowed via the French VAE process. A few years ago there were some who voiced an opinion in this thread that questioned the likely acceptability of such degrees. Those expressing that opinion were members that I respect.

    This forum is degreeinfo. This thread is titled "VAE encore and encore!" but, it is also about some diploma mill that falsely claims to bestow valid degrees via the VAE process.
     
  5. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    About the VAE not about de Sorbon!

    Sorry I am the person who started this thread in 2005 and it was, is and will be about VAE (Validation des Acquis de l'Expérience), a French legal procedure on work experience degrees not about Diploma Mills (there are many other threads dedicated on that subject in the forum).

    Should I quote my phrases again asking you to put de Sorbon out of the discussion?

    You (not me) still insist on always mentioning the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon, which is for me a 4 years-old French private university. They started promoting the VAE to foreign students and now French public universities are doing the same through their English pages.

    You do not agree OK, you hate them OK, but stop making advertisement for your foes....

    Is there anybody open minded which can tell me if the VAE is accepted in the US? I think so but I have no solid proof.
     
  6. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Au breton tétu et sympa! To Breizh Atao ou Bresaola?

    You have talent, fun and also this charming French arrogance well known all over the world (see your French phrase) but you do not answer or deny that:

    1) VAE documents could be in English contrary to what you said.
    2) VAE Jury interview could be done by electronic means contrary to what you said.

    Sais tu que l'internet a été inventé au CERN de Genève et que le PNB par habitant des "pauvres suisse" est supérieur a celui des américains USA et de 47% supérieur de celui des français ($54 000 contre 35 000 en 2005)?

    Sincerely
     
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    When this thread was recently revived from its well-deserved oblivion, we were informed that Robert de Sorbon is supposedly the pioneer in marketing "VAE" and that other French universities are following its lead. The same claim was made in the original post three years ago. This thread has always been a vehicle for pushing Sorbon.

    And seeing as how 'Peaceforall' seems to be employed marketing Jean Prade enterprises, he's probably puffing himself a bit with that claim.

    It's unfortunate that Anglophones only encounter this mysterious "VAE" when its being promoted by seemingly bogus "universities" offering life-experience degrees on the internet. Robert de Sorbon and its kin only harm the interests of real VAE and its graduates.
     
  8. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Here its goes again: "Ad Hominem"* Attacks!

    I am offended by such nasty and unfounded remarks. I am the independant guy who always said and write "Let's forget de Sorbon, lets talk about the VAE" . In fact you are the one who always mention de Sorbon, while I try to elevate the debate to a higher level and more interesting level: THE VAE AND ITS ACCEPTANCE IN THE USA. Are you in their marketing team (LOL)?

    I was, I think always polite, respectful (which is not always your case) and bringing facts, numbers and valid information about the VAE and the VAE only.

    I do not think that de Sorbon will waste time (i.e. money) in marketing its private French university in a forum where everybody is against...

    I am sad and hurt that you doubt of of my integrity as I never questionned yours.
    *"ad Hominem" in Latin means "personal"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2008
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    You may have started this thread but that does not mean any kind of ownership or authority. You are the one that keeps bringing up the diploma mill. I simply respond to your assertions regarding the diploma mill like above when you say that it is a French private university. Since it is a diploma mill it can't be a university. Regarding the claim to it being French, the ODA does not seem convinced that it is even French.

    Regarding your final sentence, you seem to imply that some anonymous stranger posting an opinion of VAE acceptance within the USA is somehow proof of acceptablity. Perhaps you should reconsider that position?
     
  10. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    French VAE accepted or Not? is the subject

    Again important question is not de Sorbon but the acceptance of a quite revolutionary French procedure: The Validation des Acquis de l'Expérience. It is controversial as it can (and the 2005 figures proves it) award full degrees based on work experience contrary to the US PLA. I think it start to be accepted but I welcome dissenting opinions

    I do not own (neither do you) this thread but the readers can see that my only interest was the acceptance or not of the VAE. You always go back to de Sorbon. The question is why ???

    About ODA, I think theat is has limited jurisdiction only on on the small state of Oregon (am I correct?), not in the US and certainly not in France. Are you from Oregon?

    Even the French adversaries of de Sorbon in this thread consider it (some in bad terms) as French. As a slow and heavy Swiss looking for facts not inuendos, I went through their site and get this copy of the French Journal Officiel at:
    http://www.sorbon.fr/JournalOfficiel.jpg
     
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I read through this thread and a few others where Peaceforall has posted and I'd like to give my impression. Peace is the guy who comes up to you on the street because he's selling wrist watches out of the trunk of a car (maybe it's his car, maybe it isn't). Some of the watches are labeled Rulex, Romlex, etc. A few are actually labelled Rolex. He has all sorts of rehearsed speeches about the quality of the watches and how they all came to him from perfectly legitimate places under perfectly legitimate circumstances. It's a bit like that Prince who's trying to get some money out of Nigeria. I wave these guys off. de Sorbon is a scam and if Peaceforall disagrees then he is either a moron or a scam artist. He can choose either alternative AFAIC.
     
  12. JamesT

    JamesT New Member

    Down with Sorbon

    :mad: Dear Peaceforall,

    How do you explain the emails received from French Government Education Officials from an interested party on Degree Board much less the information showing Sorbon mailed the degrees from the State of Florida?

    http://forums.degreeboard.com/showthread.php?t=9804&page=2

    ________________________________________________________________


    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: <[email protected]>
    Date: Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 8:25 PM
    Subject: Suite à votre Mèle du 26 Février
    To: [email protected], [email protected]


    Chere Madame, Cher Monsieur,

    Vous ecrivez " Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon n'est pas un établissement privé légal en France"

    J'aimerai savoir sur quelle décision de justice vous vous fondez pour soutenir cette affirmation.

    Je vous en remercie par avance car j'envisage de suivre un de leurs enseignements.
    Avec mes salutations distinguées,

    Robert Minebout

    __________________________________________________ ___________



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: sup-info <[email protected]>
    Date: 2008/3/7
    Subject: Re: Demande pressante concernant Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon
    To:


    Bonjour,

    Vous pouvez contacter madame Gouffran à l'adresse e-mail suivante :

    [email protected]

    Cordialement. Le vaguemestre
    __________________________________________________ ____________

    from SAJ - Rectorat de Poitiers <[email protected]>
    Marie-Christine Vigneux <[email protected]>,
    dateTue, Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13 AM
    subject ecole Robert de Sorbon
    mailed-byac-poitiers.fr
    hide details 10:13 AM (3 hours ago) Reply
    *_A l'attention du *=
    Monsieur, Suite à votre e-mail du 22 février 2008, j'ai le regret de vous informer que l'école Robert de Sorbon n'est pas un établissement privé légal en france. Il n'est pas reconnu par le ministère de l'éducation nationale.
    Salutations distinguées
    --
    Jean TAPIE
    Rectorat de l'académie de Poitiers
    Responsable de la cellule des Affaires juridiques
    Tel: 05 49 54 70 25
    Télécopie: 05 49 54 79 50
    Courriel : [email protected]

    Translation Provided By Babel Fish http://babelfish.altavista.com/

    Dear Sir, Following your e-mail of February 22, 2008, I regret to inform you that the school Robert de Sorbon is not a legal private establishment in France. It is not recognized by the ministry for national education. Best greetings
    __________________________________________________ ______________

    from Jean-marie LEBON <[email protected]>
    cc Christophe MUSITELLI <[email protected]>,
    Christian JOLY <[email protected]>,
    Veronique FAYARD <[email protected]>,
    date Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 5:33 PM
    subject Bogus University
    mailed-by diplomatie.gouv.fr
    hide details 5:33 PM (16 minutes ago) Reply

    Dear Sir,
    The names of the "University Robert de Sorbon" and its American counterpart
    are "well" known by many departments of education at the state level, and
    even by US federal institutions. As soon as you discover a US institution
    without a ".edu" website, you must know this is not an accredited school in
    the USA.
    A small search on google, ask, yahoo, etc, brings you several US official
    documents listing this "school" as bogus. Please find three of these
    documents here.
    All the "degrees" delivered by "University Robert de Sorbon" are totally
    useless. They have names - really funny - to escape the French law. This
    bogus university MUST NOT be confused with the prestigious "Université
    Panthéon Sorbonne" or "Paris 1", 12 place du Panthéon, 75005 Paris.
    Cordialement. Jean-Marie Lebon
    ---
    Jean-Marie Lebon
    Educationalist
    Studies Office - CampusFrance
    Embassy of France
    4101 Reservoir Road NW
    Washington DC 20007 , USA
    Tel: +1 202 944 6015, fax:+1 202 944 6268
    [email protected]

    -----Message d'origine-----
    De : Christian JOLY [mailto:[email protected]]
    Envoyé : lundi 25 février 2008 17:01
    À : 'Veronique FAYARD'
    Cc : 'Christophe MUSITELLI'; 'Jean-marie LEBON'
    Objet : French Private Education
    Bonjour,
    Bonne question : nous l'avions repéré comme suspect... Pour plus de
    précision, je demande à Jean-Marie Lebon de vous faire une réponse plus
    élaborée pour transmission au demandeur.
    Je profite de cette occasion pour vous rappeler que nous disposons de
    beaucoup d'informations sur ce type de questions, patiemment amassées par
    Jean-Marie dans le cadre du studies office (progressivement intégré dans
    l'Espace CampusFrance), et qu'il vaut mieux mutualiser nos questions et nos
    réponses auprès de CampusFrance.

    Bien cordialement,

    Christian Joly, Ph.D
    Higher Education
    Embassy of France to the United States
    4101 Reservoir Road, NW
    Washington, DC 20007
    Tél / Phone : (1) 202 944 6121
    Fax : (1) 202 944 6268

    -----Message d'origine-----
    De : Veronique FAYARD [mailto:[email protected]]
    Envoyé : lundi 25 février 2008 15:36
    À : Christian JOLY
    Cc : Christophe MUSITELLI
    Objet : TR: French Private Education

    Bonjour,

    Nous avons été alertés au sujet du site
    www.sorbon.fr qui paraît suspect ;
    je vous fais suivre le message ci-dessous. Quelle réponse officielle
    pouvons-nous apporter? Merci, Véronique
    --
    Veronique Fayard
    Cultural Affairs Coordinator
    Consulate General of France
    530 Bush Street, 3rd floor
    San Francisco, CA 94108
    Ph: (415) 591.4822
    Fax: (415) 591.4800
    www.frenchculture.org

    ----- Original Message -----
    From:
    To: <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:22 AM
    Subject: French Private Education

    Please reply as soon as possible. I am interested in finding out if the
    Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon http://sorbon.fr/ is a legal private
    university located in France and authorized to issue degrees at all
    levels. Thank you for your assistance and timely reply. I have written
    many people, including the French government and have not received a
    reply. It is very important for me to find out this information. Sincerely
    and Respectfully

    Svp réponse aussitôt que possible. Je suis intéressé à découvrir si l'Ecole
    Superieure Robert de Sorbon http://sorbon.fr/ est une université privée
    légale située dans la France et autorisée pour publier des degrés à tous les
    niveaux. Merci de votre aide et réponse opportune. J'ai écrit beaucoup de
    gens, y compris le gouvernement français et le démuni a reçu une réponse. Il est très important que je découvre cette information. Sincèrement et avec
    respect
    _______________________________________________________________

    Posted information on Email Originating IP Addressses and documentation showing degree certificates mailed from Florida.

    http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/Email_from_Dr._Jean_Prade.pdf

    http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/Email_from_Sorbon.pdf

    http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/AUAP_and_Sorbon_Mailings.pdf
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2008
  13. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    About the status of Private University in France

    I checked, I do not know if those emails are real or copied from a certain Dr. Robert Hill who promotes in another forum an unaccredited university Brighton U that AUAP refused to evaluate.

    Robert de Sorbon is still registered in France and exists for 4 years.

    According to the French Ministry of education, it has an inquiry from the French government about two years ago but they could not find anything wrong.

    Their degrees are sent from France of course and it has the status of private Institution of Higher Education. This status is of a "établissement Français d'Enseignement supérieur privé"

    I did the research on this status, it is well defined in the code de l'éducation:

    Article L151-6 chapter "liberté de l'enseignement"
    L'enseignement supérieur est libre. (higher education is free).

    Legally they are legit...whatever you think about it.

    It may be a loophole but it is legal.
    Regards,
     
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Is it an acceptable option to guess that both are correct?
     
  15. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    You won't catch any flak from me.
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    In higher education, "legal" and "legit" are often different concepts. Your attempt to equate them fails.
    "Legit" institutions don't require loopholes.
     
  17. Tom H.

    Tom H. New Member

    VAE and ES Robert de Sorbon

    The people behind Sorbon are taking advantage of the differences between the French higher educational system and the model used in most of the English speaking world. In France there is a public university system whose members have the sole authority under the law to confer academic degrees while there is a almost parallel Grandes École system that exists as well. It is all really French and really confusing. That is what de Sorbon proprietors are counting upon.

    As far as Robert Ray Hill's involvement, this guy has been involved with too many questionable schools to have any credibility at all. Every time I see a post from Hill it concludes with a new degree or a new title listed in his signature block. His postings on de Sorbon are amusing since he claims to be conducting his own independent investigation despite the fact that he doesn't speak French. He says that he uses translation software to construct emails and translate responses but that he is determined to get to the bottom of the matter.
     
  18. Breizhou

    Breizhou New Member

    The sorbon situation is not that complicated.
    For any french institution to use the VAE process (and to accredit a degree) they have to register their program/degree on the "Répertoire national des certifications professionnelles". www.cncp.gouv.fr

    Sorbon degrees are not present in the RNCP, therefore they are unaccredited!
     
  19. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Simply False! Read the documents... please

    This is wrong as the site of the CNPC itself states:

    "Plus de 96% des certifications reconnues au niveau national, "hors enseignement supérieur", y figurent aujourd’hui."

    Translation: 96% of the certifications (by the way not 100%) at the national level OUTSIDE THE TERTIARY EDUCATION. are present.. (in the RNCP list)

    It means that French Universities do not register their regular degrees through VAE at the RNCP. RNCP takes cares only of the "Certification Professionelles" ( Vocational Certification) and does not register the Higher Education VAE .
     
  20. Breizhou

    Breizhou New Member

    Hello swissman !

    You seem so eager to defend this ridiculous entity :) I hope they at least offered you several PhDs (not that you could actually use them anywhere).
    As for your response, wrong again, maybe you should stick with your country's educational standards...

    First, if French public universities want their program (vocational or not) to be accredited and recognized by all (some university diplomas (DU) are not) They have to register them to the RNCP. The only difference between public and private institutions is that most public schools register their program on the RNCP "de droit" which means that the RNCP will simply register the program without much evaluation because they are trusted institutions. Private institutions have to register their program "sur demande". Here the program will be evaluated and validated (or not).
    By the way th RNCP process is pretty recent and many programs are currently being evaluated and are not listed yet.

    Here is an example of an accredited master's that can be found in a public institution:
    Master Sciences et technologies de l'information et de la communication, mention Informatique, [...](voie recherche). Diplôme habilité. Enregistré de droit au RNCP. Arrêté du 22 août 2007. Habilitation pour 2 ans

    Oh and to close the Sorbon topic, Peaceforall please read the official VAE website (www.vae.gouv.fr), it's very helpful. it says:

    Quelles sont les certifications concernées par la VAE ?

    Ce sont les diplômes nationaux, les titres d'ingénieurs et les diplômes visés par le ministre chargé de l'enseignement supérieur comme par exemple ceux des écoles de commerce, de gestion et de management. Toutes ces certifications sont inscrites « de droit » au Répertoire National des Certifications Professionnelles (RNCP).

    Les diplômes et titres à finalité professionnelle ainsi que les certificats de qualification professionnelle (CQP), enregistrés dans le Répertoire national des certifications professionnelles (RNCP) sont accessibles par la validation des acquis de l'expérience.

    For the non french-speaking it says that ALL Degrees (vocational or not, certifications, national diplomas...) that are accessible through VAE are on the Répertoire national des certifications professionnelles (RNCP).

    Now please stop making an ass of yourself ! Use your dissenting mind to help the unfortunate :)


    "On confond facilement l'amour de la vérité et l'amour de sa propre vérité, c'est-à-dire l'amour-propre, réducteur de vérité." Dehaye
     

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