VAE encore and encore !

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Peaceforall, Oct 20, 2005.

Loading...
  1. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: You are partially right and totally wrong!

    I think that misrepresents what the Bologna declaration says.

    It's not a law. It's just a statement of principle. The various European education ministers commit to unifying their various diverse national higher-education systems around what looks to me like an American model.

    In particular, they intend to create a common European degree system of the bachelors-masters-doctorate form. They specifically state that undergraduate degrees must be three year programs, minimum. And they state their desire to sub-divide European university programs with an American-style class-credit system, increasing the portability of higher education.

    http://www.ntb.ch/SEFI/bolognadec.html

    So based on this, I think that one could object to French-style VAE degrees on Bologna principles because: A. they aren't three-year undergraduate programs, and B. they don't examine existing competencies on a subject-by-subject basis, as is typical with prior-learning assessment here in the US.
     
  2. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    VAE and NACES

    I am surprised by the acute "Sorbonitis" of Mr. Contreras as I specifically excluded Sorbon from the discussion. Contrary to what he said the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon appears to be a private French institution that he does not like. It was confirmed to me by the French Consulate in Geneva. They mention their address and their French phone number with their faculty names and they are a not for profit company.

    To go back to the real subject (Mr. Contreras no more free adverstisement for Sorbon)

    I was surprised to learn two important points.

    1 Joselph Silny & Associate is a respected founder of NACES (is not it ?) and, according to its French Degree specialist, Tiera Beisinger, they accept totally VAE degree and give them full equivalency. Therofore, we have in the USA at least one NACES member accepting VAE as a regular degree. I think it is an interesting contribution.

    2 "The guy who lives in Florida" as the "guy who lives in Oregon" said, was invited last week by the NAFSA Conference in Birmingham Alabama to do a presentation on ,"The New European System, Should US universities accept into graduate schools 3 -year graduate from the Europa Post Bologna". I think that Mr. Contreras was invited by NAFSA sometimes and he should respect it.

    I am waiting for the results the evaluation of the presentation of the "hurricane guy", who had for 10 years a credentialing Agency..

    Regards, hoping that the above contributions are legitimate and interesting as not prejudicial.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2005
  3. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: VAE and NACES

    Your post's opening sentence characterized Alan Contreras's factual statements about the diploma mill Sorbon as "Sorbonitis"; then your second sentence both called him a liar, and offered as the petty reason for his statements that he merely doesn't "like" it.

    Then your next sentences utilized the same, tired, old "I verified it with the embassy" claims that virtually all diploma mills use -- along with apostiles -- to try to make it sound like they're legitimate.

    Then, in your point #1, you repeat yourself about NACES accepting VAE on its face.

    And your point #2 has a sort of retributive, "take this, man-from-Oregon" feel to it.

    So, just exactly how do you think your contribution was received?

    That said, it now seems we have at least two claims of yours that need to be checked-out (which no one here has time to do, but which I now realize must be done, somehow):
    1. That degrees earned 100% by the French VAE process are acceptable on their face to Germany's Humboldt University; and,
    2. Pretty much everything contained in your point #2, immediately above.
    The reader is cautioned to take what Peaceforall is saying about the usefulness and value of VAE with a huge grain of salt...

    ...at least until someone around here can find the time to hunt down the truth about his claims here. Partial truth, or close-but-not-quite-true truth, will not do; and I have a sneaking suspicion that a careful fact-checking of Peaceforall's take on thing will reveal that all is not as he would have us believe.

    Oh... and by the way, Peaceforall: The diploma mill Kennedy-Western University was asked to make a presentation at a prestigious conference relatively recently... and that didn't make it credible, either. In fact, in a thread about it here, someone who was actually there said K-WU and its presentation were both more or less ignored, and not taken even in the least bit seriously. But as you're now trying to do with Sorbon, it sure did give K-WU the right to talk about the prestigious conference at which they gave a presentation.
     
  4. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Super Judge and Super party ?

    Dear Moderator, Dear Member,

    I am sadened to see this type of tough and unfair response. I have tried to be factual and not prejudice and the Super moderator seems to be ennoyed by my findings, because he does not like it. Why a HUGE GRAIN OF SALT ?

    There is Fouquier-Tinville and Robespierre (French revolutionary prosecutors certainly known by our dear Uncle) in his last posting. I do not know why my comments have to be taken whith a huge grain of salt and not his. Am I suspicious only because I am not against French public Universities VAE ?

    The facts are simple.

    1) I started the thread mentioning specifically "Public French Universities" to avoid the Sorbon contreversy. Mr. Contreras wrote a long message about Sorbon. Why ? it was as we say "Hors sujet". not more not less.

    2) I never implied that Mr. Contreras is a Liar I am offended by that assumption. Why such exageration from a reasonable person? I simply do not agree with him. Is it forbidden in the country of George Washington? For me the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a French private institution of Higher Education, which has the right to grant private degrees in France. Mr. Contreras think that it is in Florida and has not such right. Is it insulting not to agree with everything Mr. Contreras decides? (I agree a lot with him by the way).

    3) A member wrote that NACES was against VAE. I discovered that another NACES member, Silny & Associates in Miami equates a French VAE diploma to an accredited US degree. No more no less. For me Silny's position was new and interesting Did you know it before ? Silny is not "small potato" as he was a founder of WES.

    4) In your country, like in mine, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Here it seem the contrary. Because it is from me, it is a lie but when a German person states something, which in direct opposition with the reality of my request to Humbolt, no huge or small grain of salt needed as he fits in the "PC" of the moderator.,

    5) Dear Monsieur desElms, please trust me what I posted is what I get. I put even the names of the persons who wrote or talked to me. Trust me I am not stupid, knowing the atmosphere about the VAE, I would have not posted a lie. I am saddened by this vicious "mise en cause of my integrity" for a simple opinion on VAE.

    I think that the moderator should be more moderate, he should trust the people (following its liberal credo) and should not offend members of the forum. I never slandered the moderator and despite his exagerations, I respect him for himself, his ideas and his role in this forum.

    Let's hope that he feels the same. "Enterrons la hache de guerre et fumons le calumet de la paix".

    Respect for everybody including myself and my ideas...
     
  5. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    Has any NACES member accepted a degree issued by Robert de Sorbon as equivalent to a U.S. degree? I don't know of any. AACRAO won't because they know better.

    Saying that Silny has accepted a VAE from another institution when in fact the VAE discussion is unhidden code for the validity of Robert de Sorbon degrees is changing the hidden subject.
     
  6. NikolasHorthy

    NikolasHorthy New Member

    Alan's Right

    Yes Alan, I was waiting for this to appear...This is a "Shill" Thread for that Mill. Sincerely Yours, Nikolas Horthy
     
  7. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    To hide, unhidden, Shillden, hidden etc.

    Now the word "Shill" is launched against me. It is unfair and vicious.Could stay civilized and polite ? I never insulted anybody nor doubted of their sincerity.

    I think that it is a mistake to equate VAE to de Sorbon. Some people considers that a VAE degree from a public French university should not be accepted. Some other people think, like Silny thinks it should.

    Mr. Contreras is promoting in fact de Sorbon (against his will), in associating it systematically with the French VAE. It is definitely a mistake as other people mentioned it before. It gives too much importance to de Sorbon on the VAE process.

    As said before 10,000 VAE were given by French public universities the last two years. I imagine that de Sorbon will issue 200 degrees a year no more... (probably more if some continues wrongly to associates them with VAE.)

    I have no hidden agenda or unhidden code, I just wanted to see the acceptability of VAE degrees from Public French Universities. P U B L I C ! We were discussing even arguing about it, let's stay there, let be polite...

    I suggest that everybody give me 1 CHF each time the S---on(not Shill LOL) word is mentioned again on this thread.

    OK ...?? I am Chiled by the Shill Accusation as theV german poet Schill..er said
    Keep laughing but be respectful of each others.

    And keep going your good work Mr. Contreras, I am not against you at all.You did some very important things in your State. I salute you for that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2005
  8. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    I don't care if you call it VAE, Portfolio Assessment, PLA, Life experience, or any other term you want to apply use, it only means that a person who chose not to go to school and get a degree will get one. Now I have to sit here and here someone defend the validity of such degrees as equivalent to those earned by those who actually studied. If someone chose to go straight to work after high school, that person received payment for those services, experience for his or her resume, and now you tell me they should also get a degree, and that the degree is equivalent to mine. Not a chance. If someone wants a degree they better earn it, either by self directed study, traditional classroom attendance, or at the very least "college level examinations". Anything else is just a joke.

    I've done my share of hiring in my lifetime, and every time I get a resume that contains a degree from a school that gives credit for some form of prior learning I check to see what percentage of the degree requirements was satisfied by portfolio assessment and what was done by what I consider more legitimate means. If more than 20% of the credits were satisfied by life experience, I do not hire the person. This is regardless of the accreditation status of the school. I'd rather hire a graduate of a state approved school that did the academic work for his degree, than a RA institution graduate that did not.

    This is my humble opinion.
     
  9. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Peaceforall:

    Please make this about VAE (the legitimate French kind), and not about me, or you, or Alan, or the ODA, or Janko, or German people... or not even Fouquier-Tinville or Robespierre.

    Please make this about VAE, and not about fairness, or political correctness, or free speech, or George Washington, or the presumption of innocence... or even salt, granular or otherwise. This is a private forum, not a court of law. While pretty much all speech is okay here, the owner is free to decide -- on a whim -- what's allowed and what isn't... and all without bothering to explain it to you. The owner can decide that every post must somehow incorporate the word "snagglefish" logically in a sentence... just because he can. You seem not to grasp your good fortune in my allowing this thread to progress at all. It's an opportunity for you to convince people that VAE is credible without resorting to the kinds of tactics that previous pro-VAE posters here have tried. Don't screw it up.

    Please make this about VAE, and not about moderation or people's credos, liberal or otherwise. In fact, do not even write the words "super" or "moderator(s)" or "moderation" again in this thread, or refer to it with any kind of code. And, yes, that even includes "Super." Just to make my point, even if you only need to refer in this thread to something not associated with moderators that is simply "super," don't you dare write it... or this thread -- and you, here -- are done.

    Please make this about VAE, and not about the diploma mill Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon. In fact, do not write any of the words "Ecole" or "Supérieure" or "Robert" or "de" or "Sorbon", or refer to any of them with any kind of code. And, yes, that even includes "Robert." Just to make my point, even if you only need to refer in this thread to someone named "Robert" who has nothing to do with Sorbon, don't you dare write it... or this thread -- and you, here -- are done.

    Please make this about VAE, and not about hatchet burying or peace pipe smoking... especially in French. This is an English-speaking forum/website; please write in English.

    Like every pro-VAE poster I've ever seen here, you are pushing the envelope and trying our patience. I warned you what this thread was not going to become, and still you test the waters.

    Stop trying to "ignite" something, as the very first sentence of your thread-starting post declared was your intention. Stay on the topic that you launched, and either show us that French VAE is legitimate and worthwhile, or stop posting about it here altogether and just let this thread go dormant. Take your best shot, or stop shooting.

    Make another post here that strays outside those boundaries, and this thread -- and you, here -- are done.

    Choose wisely your next words.
     
  10. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Well, I have not posted on here in a while but I would love to add something to this thread. It's in my area of interest.

    The area of VAE seem to still have mixed preception on here still, so here are my points.

    1. Does the French law allow for Diploma Mills to exist? While Oregon has strict laws against diploma mills, I am sure there are non-RA or non-NA schools there. I would say the same could be true of France.

    2. Why would the VAE diploma be any different from the other degrees issued by a public university? The teachers are the ones that make the decision and they can clearly grant partial credit to a degree, so they under no pressure to grant sub-standard degrees.

    3. In respect to De Sorbon, I have seen no credible post that can say they have issued sub-standard degrees. From what I have seen they have good professors too.

    4. Can someone leave the US or Canada go to France and complete a degree? I am 100% sure of that. Why would the VAE be different? We are very familiar with the French attitude to English. Meaning if you know French, you could get a degree by VAE anytime.

    I have to have ask this general question to the board. Whats wrong with a legally established association in France issuing degrees to someone in North America.

    The folks who are trying to dismiss VAE does not understand that its actually a win-win situation. For the student it gets them to advance in career and for school, they get to offer classes to the ones with partial knowledge. It means you widen your pool which gives you a bigger market to play with.

    As I have said many times here, no one can convince me that you cannot learn things outside the class room setting. Do I think that getting a degree by taking some GRE exam is better than proven experience? no. I do believe in balance but if that can be achieved by experience why deny the person?
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Morley:

    I suspect that you are mistaken about VAE, but welcome back to the realm of truth and light. I appreciate the clear tone and civil manner of your post.

    Alan raises a crucial point about arguments for VAE being merely shilling for Sorbon. How do we disentangle VAE from Sorbon? Can you address this problem?

    What you are doing in your homecoming post isn't shilling, as far as I am concerned.
    If your points are mistaken, let others show it in good part. If what you say is valid, let it stand.

    Best wishes to you. Janko
     
  12. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Thanks

    I have done some google in my spare time and a lot of Universities in France offer this route. Its not a Sorbon only concept.

    Secondly, its not limited to only people born in France. Naturally, if attend a university in any country, the native language is required, so no different if you want to do degree by VAE. It just means you would have to make time to be there and complete the process.

    I do not believe Sorbon is a diploma mill from what I have seen, they could be considered unaccredited depends on how you view accredited.

    For example, the standards of some states in the US is comparable to RA level accreditation, so again it depends on the level of supervision they have.

    What do think is lacking here, is the understanding of the French educational system.
     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    What, specifically, have you seen to indicate that this thing is anything but a diploma mill? Forget institutional recognition, what about the operation itself?
     
  14. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Well, thats a good question. I could easily swing back and say why do you say they are a diploma mill given the true definition of such.

    Anyway, let me give my views on this issue and the context.

    This forum is mostly focus on non-traditional education, meaning learning by other means than in front of a physical teacher.

    In that case we can say that the VAE process falls in this category. In summary VAE means that all your learning can be documented base on a specific qualification and then examined by the qualifying body using the concept of a jury.

    In respect to Sorbon, they offer the VAE process by distance to residence and non-residence of France.

    To address the issue of administration, you can look at two aspects. The admissions and then the evaluation/jury process.

    In respect to admission, Sorbon has both French and US contact information.
    1. I would agree without debate that their website could take a lot of improvement.
    2. To me their association with AUAP in whatever form does not make them a diploma mill. There is no evidence to support that view.

    In respect to the evaluation process.

    1. Sorbon does require evidence of qualification and its not just a resume.

    2. They have very good faculty members on their website and otherwise.

    3. They install a jury for each major and the jury does contact applicants to clarify the information presented.

    4. No one can claim that Sorbon issue a degree without any evidence.

    In all due respect, they could always improve different aspects of their process, but from standpoint they are not breaching the VAE process for academic type qualifications.

    In every process you have a minimum or better. From my reading the minimum for the VAE is very high. For example, no reputable professor is going to sign off on a degree to someone without proper documentation. In the VAE they do not need to, since they can give a lesser qualification or partial.

    If you look an all the public university sites, the fees for VAE is very low and a fix fee for the full degree.

    A myth that most people seem to propogate is that when the term life or work experience is used, it means no academic work. Thats false, a person applying for a License may already have an associate degree plus the experience and same goes for PhD etc. Secondly, you would get a major that matches what you know and not just what you ask for. In the technical field you may get a technology degree fully from experience but may only get partial for the engineering equivalent.

    In the US/Canada, the General Education Requirements are done in University, in Europe including France and the UK this is done in High School or A'Levels. Thats why they can give a specialize degree much easier base on experience.
     
  15. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Okay... this thread, having cooled a bit, and having gotten back on topic most elegantly; and Peaceforall having had a chance to relax and reflect, some... Peaceforall may now use the word "Sorbon," in posts which participate in this discussion, with no fear of being banned...

    ...that is, as long as he doesn't try to "ignite" anything; and doesn't return to the kind of posts he most recently made.

    Thanks, everyone, for making this interesting again.
     
  16. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I have been looking at your post and its very interesting but your interpretation could be wrong. From my basic reading, a VAE degree is issued based on courses not just here is a degree base on experience.

    They check for the competences base on each course and decide to offer the full degree or take the courses you did not master.

    Its one thing to argue about specific schools but its another to argue about the validity of a process in a country.

    This is not the same as honorary degree actually. Would a University in Germany accept the City and Guilds Senior awards? This follow similar process to VAE and you can get a transcript upon request of the subjects you master although its not a study program.
     
  17. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

  18. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The biggest problem that I have with VAE is that the assessment process doesn't seem entirely credible.

    Here's how the University of Lille does it:

    "A candidate prepares a request for validation under the 2002 law. USTL has developed special VAE (and former VAP) forms for this purpose. These include very detailed descriptions of positions held and tasks performed and the opportunity to add any relevant proof that will support the claim...

    When the file is completed it is sent to an assessment jury for validation... Once the file is presented, the candidate is heard. After deliberation, the jury will formulate a recommendation..."


    So an entire degree is based on one portfolio that consists of descriptions of jobs held and tasks performed. There doesn't seem to be any attempt to examine the candidate on the entire breadth and depth of a conventional degree syllabus.

    Let's consider an example. Suppose that somebody works in a veterinary hospital as a technician or something, and wants a B.S. in general biology.

    Here's modest 4'th tier CSU Dominguez Hills' major requirements. General ed is in addition to this stuff:

    Major Requirements - B.S.

    A. Prerequisite Courses (48-50 units) BIO 120. Principles of Biology I (4) BIO 122. Principles of Biology II (4) BIO 230. Evolution (3) CHE 110. General Chemistry I (5) CHE 112. General Chemistry II (5) CHE 310. Organic Chemistry (4) and CHE 311. Organic Chemistry Lab (1) CHE 312. Organic Chemistry II (3) and CHE 313. Organic Chemistry Lab II (2) CSC 101. Computer Applications for Scientists (2) MAT 131. Elementary Statistics and Probability (3) MAT 171. Survey of Calculus I (4) or MAT 191. Calculus I (4) PHY 120. Elements of Physics I (4) and PHY 122. Elements of Physics II (4) or PHY 130. General Physics I (5) and PHY 132. General Physics II (5) B. Common Core Requirements (9 units) BIO 320. Cell Biology (3) BIO 340. Genetics (3) BIO 342. Cell and Genetics Laboratory (1) BIO 490. Senior Project (2) C. Additional Upper Division Requirements (19-20 units) 1. Select one course from the following (3-4 units): BIO 310. Plant Physiology (4) BIO 312. Animal Physiology (4) BIO 324. Microbiology (3)
    2. Select a minimum of 16 units Students must complete at least 16 units of upper division biology courses and chemistry courses. By taking CHE 450 and CHE 451, and either CHE 452 and CHE 453 or CHE 456 or CHE 458, students may complete the equivalent of an organic/biochemistry minor within the biology major. For students planning to attend professional school, CHE 450 and CHE 451, in particular, are strongly recommended. Note that CHE 230 is a prerequisite for CHE 450 and CHE 451."


    So is it realistic to think that a single portfolio describing all the tasks that you perform at the veterinary hospital, evaluated by a jury at one sitting, could possibly capture the breadth of the material in all of those classes in the depth and detail that those classes cover it?

    Maybe I'm wrong, but at this point I just don't see how it could.
     
  19. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    well, I do not want to get into trouble for defending this concept too much.

    My understanding is that during the application process, the counselor will work with you to do a preliminary screening. The portfolio is prepared with this in mind.

    I have to find the link that explained but I am sure of the following from reading.

    1. The applicant is screened base on course contents before the jury process.

    2. Common sense tells me that the jury would get the files ahead of the meeting to form their individual opinion. Ask for more documents etc..

    3. They use competence as a main factor in making a decision

    4. They have the option of rejecting, give partial or full diploma.

    5. Its very likely that the person would have had some training and courses before that helps too. Secondly, projects at work that fits the persons development.

    I think the problem people are having, is that it comes across as Diploma for all. Remember in this case its Academics, they have no obligation to put their reputation on the line to grant a diploma. This is not St. Regis or Belford type here.

    Thats why I do not understand why you call Sorbon diploma mill, you could say lower standard but not in the case of pay a fee, here is a diploma.
     
  20. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Defending the VAE process employed by legitimate institutions of higher learning in France will not get you into any trouble here. Suggesting that VAE is what Sorbon is dispensing -- or that Sorbon is anything but a diploma mill -- might.

    So far, you're doin' just fine. :)
     

Share This Page