VAE encore and encore !

The funny thing about the French Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is that it uses the name of the founder of L'université de Sorbon, France most prestigious university in a shameless atempt to confuse its customers. I simply do not see how anyone can defend such an institution as legitimate. Thanks Gregg for setting this straight.

 

Since you...

[REMOVED BY MODERATOR, AS PROMISED]

...to be debated much.

 

Wanna' roll the dice on your DI posting privileges next?

Do not comment on the moderation here. Do not talk about Sorbon in a way that attempts to make it sound credible. Make your arguments that legitimate French VAE is or is not credible, and confine your commentary to that subject.

 

Going back to VAE without any reference I will clear up the following points which are my opinion from googling.

1. The VAE process involves the development of a file which can mean taking exams, writing thesis or interviews.

2. The Jury examines the file after all the documentation has been done base on each schools policy.

3. Skill areas such as Certifications has sligthly different approach than the academic ones.

4. The VAE is not an honorary process, its a case where knowledge is compared with academic or skills courses base on competence shown. The honorary process is more along the line of accomplishments and its more like giving a title to someone.

5. The VAE is available to non French citizens and can be done in English with some schools.

Question on this.

Could a university provide a list of courses without grades as part of the VAE process? Is it illegal to do so?

 

Whew! Thankgod.

Where? In the United States, you mean?

And "illegal"? Or do you mean "inappropriate" or maybe "unethical"? There's a big difference... and maybe one of the latter would be a better word, here... at least if you mean someone with legitimate French VAE, issued by a French university that is physically located in France; and which is authorized by the French governmennt to grant degrees to French citizens, in France, presented his/her French VAE credential to a US institution of higher learning.

That's what you're talking about, right? By "university," you mean a legitimate French university, physically located in France; and authorized by the French government to grant degrees to French citizens in France... right?

Or by your words "without any reference," did you mean that you still wanted to talk about Sorbon, but without actually writing the word or by any other means referring thereto... thereby attemping that end-run thing about which I earlier warned.

 

I am not sure what you are asking. Yes, of course I mean a university offering VAE in France.

Am I not clear there?

I meant the school does the VAE, then issues a list of courses that the student was approved to be competent. Is that illegal to do in France with VAE?

 

By your incompleteness, no. I asked if, by the word "university," you mean a French university, physically located in France; and authorized by the French government to award degrees to French citizens, in France.

I'll assume that that's what you mean. It seems so, at least.

For use where? Am I not clear there? Do you mean that the degree holder will then take it and present it to another French institution? Or to a US institution?

 

I would assume anywhere that requires the knowledge of courses. Most times that universities, in the US or France, it should not really matter.

 

But it does. We can't know -- and it's not part of the subject of this thread -- what's legal in France. The issue was (and remains) the presentation of legitimate French VAE to institutions/employers in the US.

But before speculating on the legality (or appropriateness or ethics) of one so doing in the US, let me ask you: Do legitimate French universities that are physically located in France, and are authorized by the French government to issue degrees to French citizens in France, typically do such a thing as, to use your words, "issu[ing] a list of courses that the student was approved to be competent" when they grant credit or a degree by means of the VAE process? Is that part of it?

 

I don't know. I ask the question since someone mentioned that there is no transcript with a VAE degree.

I know the UK City and Guilds have a similar process as the VAE and they issue a list of course in place of a transcript whenever requested.

 

It's also the sort of thing that diploma mills do... which is, in largest measure, why most folks around here might find it repugnant.

There's also a certain general disingenuousness to it... and appropriately so. The specific courses were never completed, or tested-out against. Unless the institution performing the VAE procedure (or City & Guilds, or any other institution, for that matter) does a course-by-course prior-learning assessment of the applicant's knowledge and expertise balanced against the level of knowledge and expertise with which a student who passes said course should emerge therefrom, how can the university, in good conscience, declare that the applicant has effectively completed those very specific courses and has demonstrated the same level of knowledge, course-for-course, as someone who had done so?

A declaration by the VAE-issuing university that would have much more integrity, in my view, woud be for said university to take a giant step back from it so that it addresses only the bigger picture; and to declare, in effect, that the degree which is being awarded by means of the VAE process requres, were it achieved by means of taking courses, a certain number of hours of humanties, a certain number of hours of math, a certain number of hours of science, etc., etc.; and that by that standard, the applicant has clearly demonstrated a level of knowledge and expertise that is equivalent to that which would be exhibited by someone who had passed those numbers of courses in those general areas of study.

I'm not saying that that would or should be acceptable to US institutions and/or employers. I'm just saying that issuing a transcript which lists courses never actually taken or even tested-against, and declaring that the degree holder should be treated as if s/he had completed and passed them, individually, just smacks of a lowly diploma mill tactic... and rubs me entirely the wrong way. It is right, therefore, that VAE institutions dont' do it. A more generalized declaration of the sort described in the previous paragraph might (and I stress the word "might") be better.

But, in the end, that's a moral/ethical consideration... not a legal one.

 

Let me explain what I am asking in more details.

John Brown goes to university of Paris to apply for VAE degree. The process is such that his background is compared with a specific major, meaning a list of courses thats required to complete the major.

My question is what is wrong with them saying that John Brown has the competences in these areas? Note, no grade is given for the course, just saying its the required courses.

I am not saying they should, just curious why they can't. what exactly is the VAE compared against?

 

I understood what you were saying before you re-stated your question. There's no new questions, here.

There are posts in this thread which more or less explain it. Why VAE is what it is is of little interest to me.

Nor am I necessarily intolerant of it at all. But as I stated much earlier in this thread, even if the VAE process were identical to the regionally-accredited prior learning assessment (PLA) process in the US, it's appropriate and proper that PLA is typically limited to no more than around 25% of a degree's total credit hours. One of VAE's most assailable and indefensible features is its willingness to award an entire degree for life experience. That's not education. It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what is and is not "academic"... as well as what is or is not education's fundamental purpose.

We're starting to sweat the minutia now. To what end?

 

people make it sound that City & guilds awards are easy or automatic and this is far from the truth, in reality one needs to have combination of recognized education and recognized work training and recognized experience.

non UK awards have to be evaluated by NARIC to their UK Equivalency.

For example award in Electronics - Licenship - LCGI
they offer 70+ senior awards LCGI.

Entry requirement is NVQ level 3 or from overseas Final Certificate of Technician that is 40 to 60 college credits than they need additional Technician specialization certificate and verifiable 5 years in responsibility position directly related to the field.

All this for an award that is equivalent to USA AS degree.

Satisfy entry Level 3 qualification - without this a person cant apply for lCGI.
to get LCGI one need to satisfy the requirements A and B and C

I think when people claim C&GI PLA - they really make it sound as its like with Sorbone or other VAE/PLA place that's not correct.

NARIC only evaluate NATIONAL standard or us RA/NA degrees and awards that are above 200 hours.

I know persons that failed to get award from C&GI.

Leanrer

 

This is the main thing that I fundamentally disagree with you on and think many academics would agree me too.

The whole issue of Academic versus experience and education. My basic understanding is that education is learning and then validation.

In a regular school, you go to class and then take exams or assign to prove that you learnt the subject. In some cases you fail the exam because you did not learn.

The same thing apply to experience, you may learn a lot or you may not learn. The main issue is to validate if you learnt. Thus, I think the 25% is more about money than quality of learning.


If someone takes a VAE process, the idea is to prove if they have been educated by the experience, meaning have they learnt the subjects in question.

I am an extremist here, I believe you learn best in a real class room or by experience. To me Distance learning is just a complimentary thing for people with experience, not the most respected on its own.

Did you get a degree from full time school?

 

Well, you are making my point that this approach can be very much respected. I do disagree that the VAE cannot be the same level. Each school have their own approach to complete the process but the VAE definition in itself, is just as good as the CGI approach.

I do recommend CGI, since they are established and no one can question their judgement.

CGI does allow you a path with experience only but as said before, you have to prove thesis plus an interview.

 

The section that talks about not having the qualifications and having 5 years applies only to paragraph B.

A is a must and there is no flexibility there.

B has some flexibility if a person is 26 + and has 5 years of experience.

Any way that just for the lowest of C&GI Senior awards - LCGI.

Learner

 

I do endorse the CGI as very high standard. The other good thing its a qualification and not a direct degree. In that way you avoid people trying to argue about academic versus vocational.

The few documents I read of the VAE seem very similar to the CGI process.

You need to develop a file and then an Interview.. The file could consist of exams and other requirements depends on the approach of each school. In the end, a professor would need clear envidence to grant a degree in full.

 

Not to prolong this argument.

The adult is always faced with two choices, learning something new or validate what already learnt.

The one other thing I like about the VAE is that you may not have the ability to get a full degree or certification, so you can do the process to get partial validation which then advise on the shortfalls.

The main areas of validation are

Examinations

Academic level reports or

PLA

Exams are a good comprise in the sense its closer to the traditional way.

Ideally I think a combination of all the above will help most adults. Considering you can use prodfessional exams to gain credits.

This approach is not advocating an easy way to gain qualifications, its just a logical way to prove yourself and b recognized.

Diploma mills, will not even come close to any of the above, since their focus is to make money and pass all who apply.

 

And that would include mills hollering "VAE" to their "victis", right?