VAE encore and encore !

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Peaceforall, Oct 20, 2005.

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  1. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I am not sure exactly what you getting at but my standard is that you should prove by normally acceptable standard that you learnt and is competent in the area of certification.

    If a school has factually proven not to do that, then no need to argue.

    Of course outside the VAE world, there are other schools that are called diploma mills but does offer courses of some form. I am not sure how to categorize if I use the general approach on this forum.
     
  2. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

  3. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

  4. intsvc

    intsvc member

    English POV's on VAE's?

    I can't read French.

    I'm looking for expert and/or knowledged opinions and/or papers on the French VAE system.

    Many thanks
     
  5. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    intsvc,

    After you used the above post to try to start a new thread on VAE, I moved it here, into this thread, where it really belongs (given that this thread is current); but, more than just that, I also wanted you to read this entire thread because I think maybe the answers you seek may already be in it... or, if not, then people who can help you will be more likely to notice your questions, and may respond.
     
  6. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

  7. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Full University degree through VAE confirmed

    The VAE procedure can grant a full University degrees<b> (not only credits towards a degree as the US PLA) contrary to what it was said by some.

    Please see the page in English of the French famous public University of Paris Dauphine:
    http://www.dauphine.fr/en/training-and-degrees/validation-of-gains-from-experience-vae.html?S=&print=1


    From what I see on the web, all French universities are now jumping in the de Sorbon Wagon.. They even having page in English...to attract foreign students
     
  8. MichaelR

    MichaelR Member

    So what your saying is the legitimate french universities are following in the foot steps of a fake french university?
     
  9. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    VAE is still fascinating!

    If you read the three years old posts of this thread, many were discounting the French VAE (Validation des Acquis de l'Experience), which allows their universities to grant degrees on work experience. Some saying that it was equivalent at most to an "Honorary degree". People were affirming that VAE could not award a a full degree in France (only credits). According to the stats 20,000 VAE degrees were awarded in France in 2007.

    It seems also that:
    1) The VAE is more and more accepted overseas specially with the countries that signed the Lisbon Convention on the recognition of Higher Education European Degrees. (This include Germany contrary to what was said). http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/highereducation/Recognition/LRC_en.asp

    2) The French Universities (Public and Private) are now developing it (while before being against it) and try to attract more foreign students in publishing VAE pages in English.

    3) De Sorbon was the first one to advertise and promote the VAE for foreign students. It seems that now everybody does it.

    4) I slightly disagree with the "Fake Universty" attribute of De Sorbon. If I am correct they have been in business in France legally for 4 years now.

    However the VAE is much more important that this private French university.

    The important question remains:

    Do you think that the VAE is well received in the US now?
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Whatever the merits of real VAE may or may not be, VAE that's performed by real French higher-education institutions, you certainly aren't doing it any service by always trying to confuse your Robert de Sorbon enterprise with it.
     
  11. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    About the VAE and Nothing Else.

    I started three years ago this very successful thread (see the number of threads) about the French VAE and always insisted to "de-sorbonized" it. It is not "my De Sorbon" it seems more your obsession. In the last post I wrote "The most Important question is... How the VAE is received in the USA? " Nothing else.

    It is not my fault if I was mostly right in my assumptions that I expressed in my former posts in this forum;

    - French VAE is a real degree accepted mostly everywhere.

    -French Universities public and private, following De Sorbon example, are now courting the foreign students to apply to their VAE.

    - More than 20,000 degrees were granted in France by public universities last year through VAE. Figures not available for private as far as I know.

    Another Question What are your thoughts about:

    Do you think that an Americanized VAE could exist (different from the PLA)?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2008
  12. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I haven't reviewed the old posts but my recollection is that people were questioning the Robert de Sorbon diploma mill rather than the VAE process. If the PeaceForAll fellow wishes to show otherwise then perhaps pointing out the date and time for the posts he's referring to should be provided rather than his generalizations which I believe to probably be false.
     
  13. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Proofs that People were questionning the VAE Process

    Dear Bill your thread was not nice to me ("probably false"),note that I always respected you.
    I prove (what you generally never do in your post) that people in this forum were questioning the legitimity of the French VAE:

    Did you really went through the postings? I cannot believe it..

    SOME POSTS
    10-21-2005, 05:45 AM
    "I wrote NACES several months ago about their acceptance of degrees by VAE. They had a member organization contact me -I received an E-mail from a Mr.Fry. I believe from ECE who stated that degrees by VAE were not accepted He stated the VAE process was meant to validate work experience in France and not for the awarding of degrees to foreign students."


    Funny the "Not warded Foreign students" when you see the English pages on VAE from public universities.

    #12
    10-21-2005, 06:16 AM
    "The fact that even legitimate French universities might be willing to grant entire degrees based on life/work experience just makes it worse. Considering the fact that the US educational system looks down on the notion of entire degrees by PLA, it stands to reason that no US foreign credential evaluator will declare a VAE-based degree as equivalent to a US regionally-accredited degree. "

    10-22-2005, 12:22 PM
    "Even though the VAE degree is granted by public universities in France, it seems to be honorary award only."

    10-23-2005, 01:53 AM
    And from the funniest German expert...(Humboldt University wrote that they accept VAe for further studies.
    "VAE isn´t bad for someone, who´s a lot of experience.
    But for further studies in Higher Education it´s worthless."

    10-23-2005, 08:42 AM
    The U.S. will never buy-in to the French approach... probably on more than just VAE

    10-23-2005, 07:16 PM
    If there is NO academic transcript attached at the degree from VAE, it is very difficult to convince it is an academic degree award but in the form of honorary!

    DO YOU WANT MORE IT WAS ONLY ON THE FIRST 2 PAGES IT COULD BE BORING.

    It is not because we do not share the same views on some questions, that you are always right and me always wrong. On the VAE process and its acceptation I do not feel bad. at all.
     
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Regarding going through the postings, I explicitly stated that I had not gone through the postings but was simply going by my memory. I believe that you are the fellow that resurrected an old thread. You can't expect people to reread such a long thread before responding to your resurrection, at least IMHO. I was being frank. The only thing I felt unkind about was the diploma mill Robert de Sorbon. I simply suggested that my memory didn't seem to match your assertions.

    He was simply reporting what he was told.

    DesElms goes on to say, "The problem is exacerbated by the fact that diploma mills routinely exploit the confusion that those in the US have about legitimate VAE... which is entirely what Bill's post, above, is all about. And I agree with every word of it, by the way. VAE, just generally, has been so abused; and the French government has been so uncooperative about clearing it up, that it's just easier for Americans to blow-off all talk of VAE as highly likely to be diploma-mill-related."

    DesElms makes a good argument, in my opinion. (BTW the Bill in DesElm's paragraph above refers to Bill Dayson, not to me.)

    This would seem to be a misunderstood assumption of the VAE process. Please keep in mind that up to that point in time most of what we knew about the VAE process was what the totally untrust worthy diploma mill had said about the process.

    ...

    You're correct though, there were more opinions voiced that were critical of the VAE process than I remembered. I don't know though that these opinions have necessarily changed yet even though more legitimate universities are exercising the VAE process. (Note that the Robert de Sorbon diploma mill is not legitimate and should not be confused with real universities that have simlar names.)
     
  15. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    I appreciate your Straightforwardness

    You recognized that you were not adequate and that a lot of people in this forum expressed reservations about the French VAE process. You asked me to prove it, I did.

    Instead of stating your "Probably false" that really hurt my feelings, you could have in one click have accessed to the numerous postings criticizing the French process of the VAE.

    My original thread was about the VAE (not de Sorbon, that you keep citing every time.)

    I just noticed recently, and you will certainly approve it, that the French Public universities are jumping on the bandwagon of the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon in promoting VAE process to international students.

    The VAE is exploding in numbers France with Public Universities (like the cited Paris Dauphine, Strasbourg II) and private (de Sorbon and many others like HEC ).

    Is this VAE procedure accepted in the US? It Is the important question?

    I have a tendency to say that more and more ithe VAE is accepted.

    The same thing happened with the European Bologna Process (3/5/8), which is now quite accepted despite some strong reservations.
     
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a diploma mill. There's no such thing as an Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon bandwagon, only a Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon cesspool that no one in their proper mind would want to jump into.
     
  17. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    About the BandWagon

    I disagree slightly with you as Robert de Sorbon was the first French university that promoted the VAE for foreign students. The French public universities follow it now. Is not it?

    For me, and as far as I know, de Sorbon is a legal French private institution of higher education. But lets forget it!!!

    The VAE is a French procedure with much wider interest.

    What do you think, Bill, of the acceptance of the French VAE process in the US? It was since the beginning the subject of this thread. It remains very interesting as the huge number of posts in this thread proves it.

    Let me remind you the title of this forum "VAE Encore and Encore!"
     
  18. Breizhou

    Breizhou New Member

    I was browsing around, looking at American distance programs and I stumbled upon this huge thread on VAE. The amusing part is that no French discussion forum has so many posts on this subject, Americans are really enthusiastic about free (or at least cheap education :).

    Concerning the wonderful Robert de Sorbon school, it's ridiculous to compare it in any way to an actual French public university.

    1. The first issue is that Sorbon is registered as an "assocation" (non for profit organization) not a school. I have an actual assocation under my name and when I registered I could have named it "Ecole supérieure Napoléon", paid the 50 EUR and I would be the manager of an assocation named "Ecole supérieure Napoléon" not an actual school ! Let me add that there is absolutely no governmental control over the registration name of an association, so you can declare absolutely anything you want !

    2. The second issue concerns the diplomas delivered. Let's consider for a minute that Sorbon is an actual Private school. Complete Private schools (not funded in any way by government) in France can hand out whatever diploma they want. Students from these schools can use their diploma (expect in regulated jobs such as doctors, nurses, public servant...), it will be legal but unaccredited and employers might accept them or not depending on the school. Private schools have another option ( and the vast majority of good private schools do it), they submit their program to the "Répertoire national des certifications professionnelles" www.cncp.gouv.fr. The program is reviewed, if it is accepted then it is given a level (eg: I for a doctorate) and it becomes an accredited program.
    As for Sorbon, whether they use the "old traditional French curriculum" (which by the way doesn't exist anymore) or the new LMD system their programs are not recognized/accredited or registered anywhere

    Regarding the actual process of VAE:

    -It can only concern diplomas, certificates and programs that are registered in the RNCP

    -The VAE process requires you to prove at least 3 yrs of work experience in France or abroad (pay stubs...) and to chose a program with a school.

    After you are accepted in this first stage you have to produce a "dossier" where you basically take every classes or subjects present in the program you chose and show how you acquired the same knowledge through work or professional classes. This document has to be in french.

    The jury of the school you chose will look at your "dossier", usually request a personal interview (especially with bachelor's or above) where you will be questioned in french about your experience and knowledge. If your dossier is denied before the jury interview, you can ask for one. The jury often requires the candidate to take certain exams that might prove his level of knowledge (eg: real life situations, paper tests...). Once all this is done the jury will either give you the diploma or credits/another diploma of lower level or nothing.

    You have to know that when you sign up for VAE at a school, you will have to pay a year's tuition whether you get something out of it or not. For the real Université paris 4 - Sorbonne and other public universities it's usually around 500 EUR but for many others like Dauphine or other prestigious schools it can be around 4000 EUR. This might explain why more schools advertise the VAE process, they will get your money whatever happens.

    Well that's everything I can think of for now, I hope I didn't repeat anything that existed in previous posts, there's a lot of information here :
    www.vae.gouv.fr and here www.travail-solidarite.gouv.fr/spip.php?page=article&id_article=1074

    My Sorbonne linguistics teacher is part of a VAE jury so if you have questions.
     
  19. Breizhou

    Breizhou New Member

    Oups its association not "assocation". Sorry it's late here
     
  20. Peaceforall

    Peaceforall member

    Your Response is partially right and partialy wrong

    You wrote: "The first issue is that Sorbon is registered as an "assocation" (non for profit organization) not a school. I have an actual assocation under my name and when I registered I could have named it "Ecole supérieure Napoléon", paid the 50 EUR and I would be the manager of an assocation named "Ecole supérieure Napoléon" not an actual school ! Let me add that there is absolutely no governmental control over the registration name of an association, so you can declare absolutely anything you want !"

    First it is "association" not "assocation. The corrected word means "not for profit entity". All Private French Universities must be either "Association" Loi de 1901, S.A.R.L. (commercial), or S.A. (Commercial).

    Therefore it appears that they selected a not for profit form of incorporation where all members have only one vote.

    As you probably now "Ecole" means "School" in French.

    If you want to be precise an association registration does not cost 50 Euros its free but you must pay 39,06 EUR....for publication. Also and, you probably does not know, an association may be not registered (C.f .liberté d"association constitutionelle)

    Contrary to what you said, according to the French code of education, the government has a power of control on all private universities. As you will ask me where I can prove it? It is on Title III on Livre VII .

    The rest is fairly accurate, good night!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008

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