Trump is the Perfect Sore Loser

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Bill Huffman, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Apparently the Trump campaign has filed in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Michigan asking for an order stopping the Michigan Secretary of State from certifying the election results, effectively disenfranchising the entire state population or, in the alternative, not including the results from (heavily Black) Detroit and its surrounding counties due to baseless allegations of fraud. This is breathtaking. They are essentially asking the Court to participate in a coup d'etat against the legitimate government in favor of an unelected dictator through the medium of judicial voter suppression. No American Federal Court would EVER agree to such a gigantic scheme to defeat democracy. Seriously, these lawyers might find their licenses at risk for violations of FRCP Rule 11.
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Than what? It cannot "go lower." The daily rate might lessen. But right now, it's setting records daily. The death tolls from that lag a few weeks because it takes time for people to die. That's grisly, but true.
  3. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    So they are asking to delay the certification, but eventually certification will be granted as so far similar allegations of voting irregularities have not stood up in separate cases in Georgia and Pennsylvania..
    On which grounds?

    The other side of the coin:

    The lawsuit was filed overnight in the Western District federal court in Grand Rapids. It counts more than 200 pages of affidavits, many hand written, by poll challengers.

    In the lawsuit, the campaign alleges "irregularities" in Detroit’s counting of absentee ballots. The suit also raises concerns over a computer software problem in Antrim County, which initially showed Democrat Joe Biden winning the largely Republican north Michigan county. That issue has since been corrected.

    Unofficial results show Democratic Joe Biden wining the state by about 147,000+ votes. Trump campaign officials won’t say if they believe the lawsuit will close the gap.
    Trump attorney Matt Morgan claims the campaign's questions about the voting process should be answered.

    So far 38 Michigan counties out of 83 completed their post-election canvassing process. The deadline for counties to complete their canvasses is next Tuesday.
  4. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think the question is what is being done to lower the death toll. The purpose of what I stated was to give credit to medical professionals.

    While I think its a good thing that medical professionals learned how to better deal with the patients its not dismissing the effort to combat the spread of the virus.
    And as its seems that winter is getting closer and lock-dawns will be happening, I did hear something encouraging from the Biden plans, and they will be looking in to ways to keep businesses running and not chocking the economy as match as possible.
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    This is not really true. There are plenty of charts showing that the pandemic in the USA is amongst the worst in the world. In Taiwan, they don't even have to wear masks anymore and there hasn't been a locally transmitted case in months. Anyway, there seems to be one first world country that has done as bad or worse than us, the UK. Most other first world countries have done much better. Here's a few examples.
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes, the Trump people are trying the same thing in Pennsylvania. It won't work there, either.
  7. copper

    copper Active Member

    Did you even read what I wrote? "The only studies I've seen that helped reduce the death toll from the pandemic, comes from countries that had complete lockdowns. " What am I saying that is not true? The data analyzed from many foreign countries supports a lockdown approach to reducing the spread of the virus and btw, I didn't use Wikipedia to do the research!

    I also crunched the numbers and agree with the JAMA article posted that the USA although had a higher number of cases, the death rates were considerably lower than other countries. Death rate means those with the infection that died as a percentage. I am not going to argue that the losses in the USA are terrible!

    " In countries with high COVID-19 mortality, excess all-cause mortality reached as high as 102.1/100 000 in Spain, while in the US it was 71.6/100 000." retrieved from:[/QUOTE]
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  8. copper

    copper Active Member

    The real argument which is very complex and not as simple as Dr. Douglas wants to infer, is whether or not President Trump should have initiated a complete lockdown? Why? Because the data shows countries with lowest mortality had lockdown policies. One reason that the USA had lower rate of death/those infected may have been due to better medical treatments, interventions and medicines, etc.

    The debate whether or not the USA could have survived a lockdown will go on for years. Potential pitfalls from complete lockdown policies include: Food shortages, medical service shortages, riots, bankruptcies, loss of gainful employment, repossessed homes and cars and yes suicides. Trust me, I am grieved at the loss of 250,000 Americans with two of them from my own family but I can't ignore the potential for even greater harm from lockdown policies in a country that depends on farmers collecting eggs, milking cows, physicians treating the ill, truckers and pilots moving product from coast to coast. The riots alone in a big city like New York or Detroit may have been astounding! Too many variables to predict effective policy outcomes in a dynamic very interdependent country like the USA.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Nice manners.

    I, like a lot of posters, have a full-time job. But that doesn't mean I don't have time for this (and a lot of other) activities. Or did you think government employees worked 24 hours per day?

    Also, I don't recall ever saying anything personal about you. Why do you feel you have that privilege? It's really rude.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  11. copper

    copper Active Member

    You are right sir, it was rude and I apologize. I wanted to infer that during a lockdown, government employees would continue to get a pay check while the rest of us try to survive. My comment actually has bothered me today but I was unable to edit it and I agree with you, I was rude. It's simple to say President Trump's policies are crap and led to 250,000 deaths but can we really predict the potentially devastating effects of a lockdown policy?
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  12. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    A Pennsylvania judge ruled in favor of the Trump campaign Thursday, ordering that the state may not count ballots where the voters needed to provide proof of identification and failed to do so by Nov. 9.
    The court had previously ordered that all ballots where voters provided proof of identification between Nov. 10 and 12 should be segregated until a ruling was issued determining what should be done with them.
    It might not change the outcome of the election, but it certainly seems reasonable, based on that
    law is set by the state legislature.
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought what you were saying is that lockdowns had to remain in place to control the spread. This is not true.

    Here's a quote from an article.
    "Such lockdowns should last six to eight weeks with a goal of reaching no more than one new case per day per 100,000 people. This low rate is necessary for testing and contact tracing to have any meaningful effect. Once that rate is achieved, however, local officials will be able to adjust lockdown measures more accurately and with the flexibility the pandemic demands. If the White House and federal government will not lead, which is unfortunately likely under the current administration, the governors of each state, in coordination with their neighboring states, must take the initiative themselves. Some might think this is unrealistic, but New York has been able to maintain this low rate of new infections for the past three months."

    We went through some of the motions. We had the lockdown. We brought the numbers down. What we didn't do is have a nationally coordinated contact tracing program nor a program to encourage masks and social distancing nor a coordinated national testing program. We had a plan put together by the Pandemic task force but it was completely ignored. Instead at that point we had the President demanding that everything had to open up. For example, his free Michigan tweets and making fun of people wearing masks and making mask wearing a political statement.

    The other first world countries (except the UK) took these measures and had much better results without remaining locked down.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Like other people in other jobs, government employees are still working, still doing their jobs. But...

    Some people have to go into the workplace, even with the pandemic in run-away status. My son, who works for a federal law enforcement agency, cannot do his work without periodic appearances on-site. So he goes in. I'm more fortunate in that what I do can be done remotely. So I don't. For now.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Thank you. Let's not speak more of it. I do appreciate it, and I really appreciate that we might have different perspectives on some issues.
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I don't hold Trump responsible for all of those deaths. I also don't hold him responsible for the virus' introduction into the US. But other modern democracies have had far better outcomes--both in terms of the pandemic AND in terms of macroeconomics. Germany's population is, for example, is a quarter the size of the US, yet it has only 1/20 the number of deaths from COVID-19. Germany is an apt example because it is a modern democracy using capitalism as its economic engine, isn't isolated (like South Korea or New Zealand) and is really big (and, thus, cumbersome to manage).

    What's the difference? Leadership. In the past 4 years, Angela Merkel has become the leader of the free world. That truth has manifested itself no more clearly than with this pandemic and its management.

    If the US had gotten the same results as Germany, we would have about 50,000 dead, not a quarter-million.

    If you don't want to look at outcomes, look at inputs instead. There's no national response, not in terms of policy, equipment, public health measures, or anything else. The president has SPECIFICALLY denied responsibility for it; he fails even to acknowledge the facts about the pandemic.

    So, no. I don't hold him responsible for all of it. But I do for a lot of it. "The Buck Stops Somewhere Else" is a horrible approach for a president to take.
    Mac Juli and Johann like this.
  17. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    NBC has finally caught up with Fox News. Arizona has been called for Biden by NBC.

    On a tangential note, here's a quote from our federal government.

    “The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.

    “When states have close elections, many will recount ballots. All of the states with close results in the 2020 presidential race have paper records of each vote, allowing the ability to go back and count each ballot if necessary. This is an added benefit for security and resilience. This process allows for the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.

    Read it quick before our President starts firing people for telling the truth and makes them take it down.
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Shhh....don't tell a certain prolific poster on this topic. It would be disruptive.
  19. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Just to be clear, I didn't bold that line. The government did. :D
  20. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    This is good for Arizona state.

    In the state of Michigan the voting machines went Meshugene (crazy) they simply took votes from Trump and gave them to Biden.
    "The rise of the machines." And there is evidence documented, the glitch is well known, whats unknown is how many machines went meshugene in Michigan, :)
    I hear (didn't verify) they are still running Windows 7 that was end of life and end of support.
    I don't know if one can buy support for win 7 from Microsoft.
    Hope its not a joke.
    As Dominion if I'm not mistaken will be given contracts to provide machines to 159 counties.
    The machines had issues, its expected that some % may have freezing issues etc.

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