Northcentral U. achieves initial regional accreditation today

Re: Re: Re: Wes, seek help.

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Ah well, try to clarify something in the hope of turning down the flames a bit and I only succeed in being the occasion of now getting ACCS flamed too. May as well reveal something else.

When I enrolled in Unizul I paid up front not only the application fee but also the first year tuition. This was prior to sending even one transcript. Further, Dean Song even prior to presenting my transcripts to the faculty senate for approval welcomed me as a student and provided me with a student number. As it turned out, a month later I did have to send evidence that Western was RA/ATS..

So, turn up the burners boys and flame away at UNIZUL too!

 

Re: Quick Admissions

My experience with ACCS was no different. After speaking with the ACCS admission counselor I immediately enrolled. ACCS uses video tapes with self-tests, term paper as well as additional reading which meets my needs. ACCS also permits a six month time frame for course completion. Plus, ACCS is accredited --which to the best of my knowledge has never hurt any institution. I have located other institutions which operate very similiar to ACCS but none that offer reasonable tuition rates.

 

What were the negatives?

NCU was very upfront with me and posted all NCA/RA related actions on the website.

Forget the fact that NCU was owned and operated by SCUPS. What were the red flags?

 

Re: Ethics

Not really, Dennis, there are all sorts of ethical infractions possible short of felonious behavior. Consider this scenario. A recent graduate elects to hang out her own shingle. During the interval required to to take the exam and receive the license she discovers that it is necessary to place an ad early to be listed in the yellow pages. In a well-intentioned attempt to avoid a year's delay she goes ahead and does so. The phone book is published well in advance of her receipt of the license and she has misrepresented herself in public as being a credentialled member of her chosen profession. This comes to the attention of the licensing authority and places the new grad in a very difficult position.

 

I see nothing wrong with what ACCS is reported as doing. If they verify transcripts later, so that the phone admission is actually conditional, what's wrong with that? Considering the application fees charged by some DL institutions (legit and not-so-legit), letting people sign up for a course right away and pay for it right away is hardly wrong (unless the applicant/new student is lying about his/her credentials--which isn't ACCS' problem).

Dennis' comment is on the mark: it's good business sense. I can be as misty-eyed about the nobility of learning as anybody else, but a school is a business along with all the other things it may be.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Who is Gus Saniz?

I am not trying to move the arguement, but is it interesting that Gus, posts nothing more than a name which may or maynot be true. Many members of this NG completely discount the opinions of others who do not identify themselves. Accountability seems to be the primary reason.

 

Re: Re: Re: Wes, seek help.

First of all with regard to TRACS....

TRACS back in the mid 90's received commendation as I recall from the US DoE for their methodology. TRACS is also continuing to attract new schools such as Norm Giesler's Southern Evangelical Seminary, Mars Hill, King's Seminary (Jack Hayford. etc.). So, we can lay off of them especially considering that RA accredits schools accused of giving away A's & B's (I am thinking of one franchised school in particular). That is not necessarily bolstering a call for questioning RA (it could well). Although using your line of thinking this should give support to those supporters of unaccredited schools who " believe that the criticism of RA is not all that undeserved…"

Second of all with regard to ACCS, there are RA schools that will allow you to enroll for courses without formal acceptance (usually what I have seen is a limit). What is the big deal to them if you appear to meet requirements and they allow you to take a course. If if does not turn out to be the case then they have lost nothing and you took a course. Let's face it, when you are talking about doctorate programs from schools such as Capella, University of Sarasota/Argosy, Walden, etc., are you not pretty much talking about open admissions. You meet the minimum GPA and you are in. It is not the University of Michigan, UT-Austin, Harvard, etc. where you have a limited number of slots in a prestigious doctoral program.

I appreciate that you and Wes seem to be engaging in a battle of words but don't let this cloud your thinking in order to engage in straw man debate tactics in order to stick it to him.

North

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

I agree with Wes regarding accountability, and have done so many times here and elsewhere. But it is only a factor when someone uses his or her own experiences as proof of whatever it is they're stating. With the disagreement you have with Gus, it doesn't really matter who he really is; you're not being asked to rely on whatever Gus says he is or has done. Anything he's offered up on this matter can be verified or refuted independently. (No "e" after the "u" in "argument," BTW.)

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

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Bill, it was you who wrote, "...So I do trust everything that Gus says but have found that I can't count on him saying everything."

All I did was restate what you said in a previous post.

Just so you won't say I conveniently tried to to misrepresent your statement, here is some more.

"I have found that I can trust everything that Gus says. Yes I do like Gus and I am slightly dissappointed that he didn't tell me who I should have voted for last Tuesday. True I forgot to ask him but if he were perfect he might have known and just let me know. So I do trust everything that Gus says but have found that I can't count on him saying everything. "

What else am I suppose to take from the final sentence of your statement?

 

Hi North: Let me take this a step further. Suppose somebody had unsatisfactory (or even fake) credentials for admission to a given program, but got in anyway through an administrative fluke or just plain sloppiness in verification. If they do the work for the new degree competently and honestly, and in due course are awarded the degree, is the institution still to be faulted for the earlier problems of credentials and admission?

I'm not necessarily arguing for this, just wondering.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Yes, and No.

Only Gus and I know who has misrepresented the truth. Gus can not be held accountable in any way shape or form. I on-the-other-hand can be located in the greater Nashville area and by CRCC reference. Additionally, as Gus has pointed out have identified myself to the State of Tennessee.

 

I've been coxised.

Brilliant!

I now suggest we enter into the unofficial DegreeInfo lexicon the term “coxism.”

coxism: to frame a statement, issue, argument, or question in such a manner that it preemptively renders impotent, irrelevant or null any opposing viewpoints, statements, arguments, evidence or questions


Examples

Forget those crimson rectangular pieces of fabric used as a signaling device. What red flags?

Except for that one time (and maybe another) prove that my statement that I NEVER did such a thing is wrong.

You are a LIAR!!! I do not, however, have to provide any proof of this, because even if you prove that it is I who is not telling the truth, that too must be a lie, because you are a LIAR!!!

 

It is an interesting question from two vantage points. The first is that if the school were indeed sloppy and admitted someone with fake credentials they should be faulted and tighten up as one would expect more from a university. In reality, mistakes happen (part of being a human being). The second is that the person in your scenario was evidentally able to do the level of work required by the University. I suppose this is what supports the idea of open admissions anyway. E. Erickson was certainly of doctoral level without the degree.

As far as standards themselves go, do you get a better psychotherapist from a prestigious PhD in Counseling Psych program than you do from a basically open admission program like Capella/Walden, Argosy?? I have seen no statistics to say one way or the other. In fact there are some interesting stats with regard to recovery rates in Psychotherapy over time that imply that the Psychotherapy itself had little to do with the recovery. This is getting a little off topic but nonetheless, if you admitted someone on a provisional basis and they were able to do the work at the University at the expected level without the required entrance degree then.......????

North

 

I continue my comments only because other members continue to reference my past comments.

Here is one example, as written by Bill Huffman, "...Okay, having a Bachelor's relates to my credibility how, in regards to my opinion on whether Gus or Wes is being truthful. The way I look at it is I see Wes lying about what Rich and John said about the probability of Northcentral becoming accredited even after attempts by Rich and John to correct the misrepresentation he continues to repeat the lie...."

I contend and you admit in your own round-about-way that you have made strong statements related to NCU's relationship with SCUPS specific to RA efforts.

Your very own statement reads, "...If I've been wrong twice about NCU--that SCUPS would be a problem, and so would the nonresidential doctoral programs--fine. With my shiny, new "professional opion," I can afford to be wrong sometimes. When I graduate next Spring, can I get that opinion upgraded?"

 

Re: I've been coxised.

Again Gus, you can't read and understand the true meaning of any statement, but rather prefer to misrepresent the intent.

NCA, proved this very thought process to be inaccurate!

 

North: I guess it's a bit like the notion of ordination per saltum. In mediaeval church polity, if a man were ordained priest but had somehow not been properly ordained previously as a deacon or to minor orders, or consecrated bishop but has not been properly ordained previously as a priest (or deacon, for that matter), the conferring of the "higher" rank took care of any deficiency in the conferring of the "lower" rank.

As for your question about quality variance between "prestigious" and open admissions psych graduates, my own suspicion, based on observing clergy from all sorts of different educational institutions, is that it's the quality of the graduate, not the school from which the student graduated, that makes the real difference.

Someone might well object that there is a "hard" scientific aspect to psych that manifestly isn't there in religion, and that therefore the caliber of the institution is really critical.

On the other hand, just as exceptions shouldn't abolish the rule if a really good graduate comes from a second-rate school, they shouldn't abolish the rule if a real bulvon is produced by a "prestige" school.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wes, seek help.

I am not attempting to stick it to anyone. Although I fully understand that disproving Wes’ falsehoods may be prejudicious to his career path (which has concerned me), his problems are of his own making and I am much more concerned with the harm that may potentially come to those who innocently believe his averments.

My comments concerning ACCS were not meant to denigrate ACCS or its programs; I simply found that its admission procedures were more than a bit odd. The fact remains that the procedures as described by Bill and Wes are employed by few if any legitimate schools, but by almost every degree mill. I simply pointed out that, rightfully or wrongly, that did not make their admission procedures look good. It is one thing to allow someone to enroll in a class whether provisionally or on a non-degree seeking basis. It is another thing entirely to inform someone that he or she has been officially admitted to a school and a degree program on the basis of a telephone call and a credit card payment.

Although that was not my intention, I knew that my statements might evoke the ire of ACCS alumni. I would hope that, rather than assume a reactionary defensive posture, they would be more concerned about their alma mater projecting an image of being extremely undiscerning as to how and who they officially admit. For example, much light has been made that you can get a ULC degree and ordination for your dog. I’m sure my dog will thrilled to find out, that before the day is through, he too will be able to list himself as, Doctorate in Christian Counseling (In Progress) American Christian College and Seminary. Now, how does that make you feel?

 

Re: Re: I've been coxised.

Another brilliant coxism !

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

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I'm puzzled here, Rich? I have located one of your old posts from About.com.

'...But if you look to other people for the answers, you will be lost once you're on your own pursuing your degree. Good luck...!"
Rich Douglas
Research Assistant and Ph.D. Student
Monterrey Institute for Graduate Studies
Center of University Studies, Monterrey
www.degree.com
http://forums.about.com/ab-distanclearn/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E

Your response is not pertinent but the signature line sure implies your status as more than you describe in the above message? So you used the title of Research Assistant and Ph.D. Student but never did anything?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Rich, I have located another of you posts from About.com, in which you speak about the NCU / SCUPS relationship.
9/30/2000
http://forums.about.com/ab-distanclearn/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E

"...Ummm, actually, that's not exactly true. Your number 11 is well documented by NCU themselves. They failed in their first attempt at gaining Candidate status with the North Central Association. Oh, and number 7 doesn't look too good, either, considering they're affiliated with the not-so-good Southern California University for Professional Studies, which has engaged in some very questionable marketing in the past. NCU and SCUPS are owned by the same people...."


I know this post isn't a smoking gun, but this post does support my contention that you have spoken on this issue and have positioned your words so as to provoke multiple thoughts/ideas.

I am done with this issue unless other members continue to inquire.