Northcentral U. achieves initial regional accreditation today

I’m sorry. I thought I was responding to the same DWCox that enrolled in NCU only to drop out because the course delivery system did not meet his needs (and later regretted it because NCU became a candidate for regional accreditation), and then had the hubris to shift the blame to Dr. Bear for his decision. You must be a different DWCox than the one who enrolled in CCU’s Psy.D. program only to be informed by a member of this forum that use of the title doctor from an unaccredited institution would violate the Code of Ethics of his professional organization. That DWCox, in the mistaken belief that the problem was with the Psy.D. degree rather than the institution, then considered enrolling in CCU’s D.B.A. program (anything as long as he could use the title doctor in a quasi-medical profession, I guess). Aren’t you the DWCox that is pursuing a D.Min. from ACCS? Are you saying that you are not the same individual that after being apprised that use of the title “doctor” based on a degree from ACCS also violated the Code of Ethics of the CRCC, defiantly stated that he would challenge the CRCC on this ethical issue, only to later imply that he would drop the CRC designation after receiving the LPC licensure?

You can't be any of the aforementioned DWCoxs because none of them seem to have done their homework! LOL

Nothing about the above definition is confusing. The fact remains that the term “recognized educational institution” appears only in the definition section of the document. The educational requirements section for LPC licensure of the document does not employ the term “recognized educational institution.” The education requirements for the CPT (Certified Pastoral Therapist), on the other hand, does employ the term “recognized educational institution.”

Moreover, it is quite possible that when the employ the definition “nationally recognized educational body” there are referring to organizations such as the APA or CACREP. If you wanted to distort their intent, how far do you think you could stretch the definition? As they do not specify approved by the DOE, why not an institution accredited by WAUC or ACI? After all, they are “nationally recognized educational bodies,” are they not?

I have no idea what point you think I was trying to make, but at no time did I state or imply that the educational requirements for CPT licensure did not require an accredited degree. (Once again, your zeal to prove me wrong may have gotten the better of you.) Moreover, it was I who pointed out to you that it was only the CPT licensure (which until now you have referred to as the LPT credential) educational requirements, as opposed to the LPC educational requirements that employed the term “recognized educational institution.”

But if you’d like, go ahead; try and prove me wrong. Show me where in the educational requirements for LPC licensure the State of Tennessee uses the term “recognized educational institution.” I have quoted the requirements and provided a link to the original documents. Just like with the Code of Professional Ethics of the CRCC, your intense desire that something be different than what is specified in plain English won’t make it so.

Only a month or so? Do you really think that the State of Tennessee’s General Rules Governing Professional Counselors will change by then?

Have you considered the option of making a sizable donation… LOL

 

Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Sorry to disappoint, you, but you are wrong once again. At the time you posted this message, I hadn’t contacted the Tennessee Board for Professional Counselors, Marital and Family Therapists, and Clinical Pastoral Therapists – Division of Health Related Boards.

However, being that I am a nice guy, and you seem to need all the help you can get, I subsequently did.

Brace yourself, DWCox, the news is not good (but your parting words imply that you already knew that). According to Ms. Sherry Miller, the Board Administrator (and the person responsible for accepting or denying your application), national accreditation does not meet the specified educational requirements, and is NOT acceptable. She did state, however, that you could, of course, hire an attorney and appeal the decision to the entire Board. When I asked if anyone with national accreditation had ever surpassed this hurdle and achieved licensure, she said, “not to my knowledge, no.”

So there you have it. If you would like to confirm this (I have no idea who, if anyone, you talked to, but obviously they were wrong, and their opinion is irrelevant anyway) please contact:

• Sherry Miller
  Board Administrator
  Tennessee Board for Professional Counselors, Marital and Family Therapists, and Clinical Pastoral Therapists – Division of Health Related Boards
  1-888-310-4650 ext. 25138

I’m truly sorry! However, look on the bright side; it is better to find out now, rather than after having spent any more time, money and effort in yet another program that won’t meet your needs.

 

I must admit that sizable donations do frequently work when trying to get into a country club.

 

Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Large donations are sometimes acceptable for gaining entry into country clubs.

 

Double LOL!

 

Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

I understand newly accredited distance learning institutions will change their delivery systems for a large, under-the-table donation. Tens and twenties, please.

 

Boards of professional licensure will rigorously defend their statutes and bylaws. Any candidate for licensure who presents a case that is not based on strong legal grounds will not persuade board members to accede to their requests.

 

I’m sorry. I thought I was responding to the same DWCox that enrolled in NCU only to drop out because the course delivery system did not meet his needs (and later regretted it because NCU became a candidate for regional accreditation), and then had the hubris to shift the blame to Dr. Bear for his decision. You must be a different DWCox than the one who enrolled in CCU’s Psy.D. program only to be informed by a member of this forum that use of the title doctor from an unaccredited institution would violate the Code of Ethics of his professional organization. That DWCox, in the mistaken belief that the problem was with the Psy.D. degree rather than the institution, then considered enrolling in CCU’s D.B.A. program (anything as long as he could use the title doctor in a quasi-medical profession, I guess). Aren’t you the DWCox that is pursuing a D.Min. from ACCS? Are you saying that you are not the same individual that after being apprised that use of the title “doctor” based on a degree from ACCS also violated the Code of Ethics of the CRCC, defiantly stated that he would challenge the CRCC on this ethical issue, only to later imply that he would drop the CRC designation after receiving the LPC licensure?

----------------------------------------------------------

Gus, let me point out where you are right and wrong!

I was a Ph.D. student at NCU during candidacy and knowingly made the hard decision to drop the program because the format was too demanding -- 20 papers in 15 weeks -- for someone with two toddlers and a thriving professional practice.

I do not blame Dr. Bear for anything! But I lost respect for his opinion when he adamently stated that Northcentral would not gain RA status, mainly because of NCU's relationship with SCUPS. This statement in-and-of-itself implies that NCA would not fairly judge Northcentral independent of Northcentral's relationship with SCUPS -- which NCA did!

As for the donation issue, I haven't the means to proof my statement, but I believe -- and am confident that many others agree -- that donating (either above or below the table) money to any organization will increase [one's] chances of acceptance.

Related to CCU, I elected and defended my decision to pursue the CCU Psy.D. but did overlook and I admitted overlooking the CRCC code of ethics issue. I immediately dropped out of CCU due to this very issue.

Regarding the CCU, DBA program. I do know that a DBA degree ould be useful to me. I never said I would call myself doctor in reference to the DBA degree if I pursued -- which I did not -- this program. A doctorate in management for someone like myself in private practice is quite a useful education / degree and thus certainly applicable. The DBA would educate me in many areas of my professional business practice both internal and external. What is difficult to understand about this?

I do take issue with CRCC reportedly not accepting / recognizing a doctorate degree from an accredited institution and furthermore that the DOE and CHEA recognize the accreditor, but not CRCC.

As for your report of having spoken with the State of Tennessee I will follow-up on this matter, because that is not the information I was provide. I was also told that a GAAP accredited degree would satify the State of Tennessee.

In the big picture, what I've done here is disagree with the the the RA NAZI's.

 

Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

-----------------------------------------

NO, ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG AND NOW CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for providing Ms. Miller's phone number -- although I had it because she was the person who sent me my application materal. I too spoke with Ms. Miller. After reading Ms. Miller your above comment, she stated "Having a national certification from N.B.C.C. or A.A.P.C. in-and-of-itself does not qualify anyone for the LPC or CPT Tennessee."

Had you clearly presented your question, you would have gotten another response. I have again confirmed that institutions of higher education must be accredited by a national or regional association recognized by USDOE.

BRACE YOURSELF! Below is a copy -- in it's entirity -- of an email I sent to Ms. Miller confirming our conversation. I will not however, provide Ms. Miller's email address. If you want it, you know how to go about getting it.

Ms. Sherry Miller:

Thank you VERY much for speaking with me today regarding LPC and CPT licensure.

I am sorry that a miscommunication occurred between you and Mr. Gus Sainz. I am however glad to learn that a doctorate degree from a national accredited (USDOE and CHEA recognized) institution meets the degree standard set forth by the State of Tennessee, Dept. of Health Related Boards specific to the LPC and CPT.

Per your interpretation Mr. Saniz was inquiring regarding membership and certification by a national counseling organization. To which you replied, "Having a national certification from N.B.C.C. or A.A.P.C. in-and-of-itself does not qualify anyone for the LPC or CPT Tennessee."


NOW MR. GUS I AM SURE YOU WILL CALL MS. MILLER AGAIN TO WHICH YOU WILL LEARN THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND DO NOTHING MORE THAN WASTE MORE OF MS. MILLER'S TIME.

If you do, the least you can do is present and define a clear question.

 

Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Mr. Huffman, you quickly assumed that Mr. Saniz information was accurate but it is not! Read on and you'll see otherwise. For that matter why don't you contact the State of Tennessee yourself.

Maybe you should test the water before jumping in.

Do you always trust information without first validating or do you just like Gus?

I don't care one way or the other!

 

Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

You too have agreed with Mr. Gus Saniz without first validating the information. I guess it's this trait that enabled you to be dupped by MIGS for over one year despite reportedly having inside information and contacts during this entire time.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

DWCox:
As you have misrepresented what she told you (in addition to conveniently leaving out the part where you expressed dismay at being informed that indeed you may spend thousands of dollars and years of effort only to find out that the board may not approve your credentials), I have invited Ms. Miller to this forum so that she may read what you have posted and respond for herself.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

NO, ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG AND NOW CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for providing Ms. Miller's phone number -- although I had it because she was the person who sent me my application materal. I too spoke with Ms. Miller. After reading Ms. Miller your above comment, she stated "Having a national certification from N.B.C.C. or A.A.P.C. in-and-of-itself does not qualify anyone for the LPC or CPT Tennessee."

Had you clearly presented your question, you would have gotten another response. I have again confirmed that institutions of higher education must be accredited by a national or regional association recognized by USDOE.

BRACE YOURSELF! Below is a copy -- in it's entirity -- of an email I sent to Ms. Miller confirming our conversation. I will not however, provide Ms. Miller's email address. If you want it, you know how to go about getting it.

Ms. Sherry Miller:

Thank you VERY much for speaking with me today regarding LPC and CPT licensure.

I am sorry that a miscommunication occurred between you and Mr. Gus Sainz. I am however glad to learn that a doctorate degree from a national accredited (USDOE and CHEA recognized) institution meets the degree standard set forth by the State of Tennessee, Dept. of Health Related Boards specific to the LPC and CPT.

Per your interpretation Mr. Saniz was inquiring regarding membership and certification by a national counseling organization. To which you replied, "Having a national certification from N.B.C.C. or A.A.P.C. in-and-of-itself does not qualify anyone for the LPC or CPT Tennessee."


NOW MR. GUS I AM SURE YOU WILL CALL MS. MILLER AGAIN TO WHICH YOU WILL LEARN THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND DO NOTHING MORE THAN WASTE MORE OF MS. MILLER'S TIME.

If you do, the least you can do is present and define a clear question.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

I didn't misinterpret ANYTHING! This is why I posted my email response to this nice lady.

The issue is whether or not a graduate degree from an institution which is NA will meet the degree criteria of the State of Tennessee for the LPC or CPT.

You described to Ms. Miller what she interpreted and responded to as, whether or not, national certification from a nationally recognized professional association -- the example Ms. Miller used was NBCC and AAPC-- would qualify [one] for LPC or CPT licensure in Tennessee.

You did not accurately state the issue. That's your fault not mine!

The issue is this, with respect to the degree requirements for LPC or CPT a graduate degree from an institution with NA or RA DOES MEET the State of Tennessee standards.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

It is possible that Ms. Miller misunderstood my question, but is highly doubtful, especially since we never broached the subject of national certification. (Let me repeat that in case you didn’t understand it the first time. At no time in our conversation did she or I mention national certification, the NBCC or the AAPC. Not once, not ever.) In fact, in my original conversation with her, Ms. Miller was quite clear about the fact that the code specifies that SACS must accredit the degree granting institution. Moreover, when I asked her whether that meant other regionally accredited institutions were equally acceptable, she was quite specific, that no, they might be acceptable, but the credentials would have to be submitted to the board for approval. As I was quite surprised by this, I inquired whether regionally accredited or nationally accredited schools would fit the definition of fit the definition of “a comparable accrediting body,” she said that she was not in a position to interpret the code, and that any deviation from the exact wording of the code must be appealed to the board. This included any accreditor that was not explicitly mentioned.

Moreover, when I spoke with Ms. Miller today, she corroborated the pertinent facts that she relayed to me in our first conversation. So, no miscommunication here.

If you were reading my words, I am sure that the charges of miscommunication are well founded. For example, in my conversation with Ms. Miller this afternoon, she was quite clear (if not a little upset) that there was no way you could have gotten the impression that she stated that nationally accredited degrees were acceptable (as you stated in your email and in posts in this forum), as she was quite explicit that you would have to present your credentials to the board for approval. She couldn’t understand how you would subsequently misquote her, as she believed that you fully understood what she told you. In fact, she said that you asked her if that meant that there was a good chance that you would spend all of this time, money, and effort without any assurances that your credentials would be accepted by the board, and that she answered, “Unfortunately, yes.”

Therefore, although there is a chance that I could have phrased my question better, although it is possible that Ms. Miller misunderstood me or I her, what I would like to know is: Why are you deliberately and maliciously misquoting her now? The bottom line is, you know full well that she never told you that national accreditation was explicitly acceptable.

I am sure that the State of Tennessee expects a higher degree of ethical conduct from its Licensed Professional Counselors than you are now exhibiting.

You continue to spread falsehoods. At best, a degree from an institution with NA may meet the educational requirements for licensure in the Sate of Tennessee as a LPC. The problem is, as you well know (if not earlier, certainly after your conversation with Ms. Miller), you won’t know for sure until your credentials are presented to the board.

I do know this, however, if you ever get a chance to present your application and credentials to the Tennessee Board for Professional Counselors, Marital and Family Therapists, and Clinical Pastoral Therapists, your words and actions on this forum (such as defying the code of ethics of professional organizations of which you are a member, spreading falsehoods, and referring to those who favor the accreditation of schools as Nazis) may very well come back to haunt you.

 

I am sorry for entering this thread when I really have no idea about qualifications made by states for counselors. But in conjunction with a query on another thread regarding the change of presidency at ACCS, Wes' school and one of mine, I called Dr Beville the director of admissions to inquire whether this change would weaken or modify the ACCS programs. In the context of reassuring me Dr Beville mentioned, unsolicited as I've not much interest in counseling (except in getting some for my two sons), that an ACCS grad (ACCS is only TRACS, NA accredited) just recently was "board certified" in North Carolina. I apologize if this has no connection or transfer to this discussion,

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Please understand, an email you wrote isn’t proof of anything. In fact, Ms. Miller and I simultaneously read what you wrote (she from her email, me from your post in this forum) and agreed it was erroneous. Moreover, read my post above to why, at least in your case, it isn't a case of misunderstanding, but of being deliberately misleading.

We can, however, agree on two things; She is nice (really nice), and she is indeed a lady.

I limited my comments to the LPC. You might like to know, however, that Ms. Miller did inform me that a degree from a TRACS accredited school was accepted for CPT licensure. It was only accepted, however, after the credential was presented to the board, after the board questioned its validity, and only after Ms. Miller excused herself from the proceedings to do additional research so that she could present to the board information that satisfied the board’s questions as to the credential’s legitimacy and validity.

The truth is you were not privy to the conversation that transpired, therefore, this is all conjecture (or another fabrication) on your part. In fact, in my conversation with Ms. Miller this afternoon she admitted not recalling our original conversation until I reminded her of some of the more salient points. I can only surmise, therefore, that it was you who brought up the issue of national certification (more than likely as a red herring—as you have done so many times in the past). But tell me Wes, how did she get the impression you were "Dr." Cox?

As you keep mentioning RA degrees, it seems that you understand the position of the Tennessee Board for Professional Counselors, Marital and Family Therapists, and Clinical Pastoral Therapists—any degree accredited by an accreditor not explicitly mentioned must be presented to the board for approval. It is obvious that this has been explained to you or you would not be mentioning RA along with NA. Therefore, you are deliberately stating something that you know not to be true.

Once again, a degree from an institution with NA may meet the educational requirements for licensure in the Sate of Tennessee as a LPC, but you won’t know for sure until your credentials are presented to the board. That is the truth.

 

Poor Ms Miller!

 

Re: Re: Re: Wait! DWCox, don't go! This is important!

Of course I assumed that Gus's information was accurate. This is Gus that we're talking about, after all.

I find the water much to my liking. Fine temperature with a large dose of humorous flip-flops, but thanks for the suggestion.

I have found that I can trust everything that Gus says. Yes I do like Gus and I am slightly dissappointed that he didn't tell me who I should have voted for last Tuesday. True I forgot to ask him but if he were perfect he might have known and just let me know. So I do trust everything that Gus says but have found that I can't count on him saying everything.

Thanks for asking anyway. I really enjoyed it.

P.S. What does any of this have to do with country clubs sometimes accepting donations in order to gain membership?