Northcentral U. achieves initial regional accreditation today

With all due respect, DWCox, you just hit the limit on my bullshit-o-meter. RA is a number of non-profit organizations. I would be surprised if they even took donations or would know what to do with the money if they did. Do you have anything to support this bold assertion that RA is so totally corrupt that they sell accreditation like this? Are you saying that all the RA organizations are totally corrupt or is it just one representative?

Then again let's dissect what you actually said, "I am of the opinion that if an upstart institution met the basic requirements for RA [...] the overall process would be smooth sailing and the upstart would end up with RA." If we leave out that one little phrase involving $500K then we're left with a truthful, yet uninteresting statement. Do you disagree with the truthfulness of your statement after I editted it?

 

Donate a sizeable amount of money and rest assured a majority of country clubs will offer you admission -- especially, if you act like or very similiar to the other members. If anyone doesn't believe this occurs in all areas of business membership, I assert that you live under a rock. The RA's and other accreditors are no different. BTW, the donation can certainly be funded by one but actually delivered by another. Yes, I believe this can and does occur. But certainly when it does, the money trail will be hidden.

Bear's candid opinion was based on nothing more than NCU's association with SCUPS and to him this meant that regardless of what NCU did, good or great that NCU would be denied RA.

Regards, Wes

 

Rich, you have never made any statement regarding the donation issue and I never said YOU or Dr. BEAR did.

Yes, as it unfolded you made a bet with me that residence would be an issue with NCU and you were wrong about this too.
But yes, I am reporting that VERY EARLY in NCU's RA process you stated that NCU would not gain accreditation due in large part to NCU's affliation with SCUPS. Now, what this statement speaks to is how the RA process can be (or has been in the past) a political one, not necessarily a process that is fair to all applicants.

Professional opinion? Are you not employed as a corporate trainer? I think it is safe to think that your knowledge regarding academic programs might be useful in your job? Also I have read many statements from you attesting to be an authority on the subject of DL -- having of course participated in the subject area for over 20 years. Well, let's not use the term professional but rather authority, which you are -- and I agree.

You give much advice to many visitors to this and other Internet NG's and of course when challenged you refer to your "over 20 years of experience in the subject." You do, like it or not, present yourself as an authority.

Regards, Wes

 

Re: Has Anything Changed?

BTW, yes I have spoke with CRCC and have been told that several other members have been given approval to use the title of Dr. who are graduates of NA institutions. Also, let's not forget that the State of Tennessee does not require a RA degree but also recognizes NA for the LPC and LPT licenses. Even if CRCC did not alter their position, it will be a MUTE point when I obtain the LPC license.

Regards, Wes

 

I suppose so.

Believe that *what* occurs? I'm not sure what general principle your country club example is meant to illustrate.

The acccrediting associations clearly accept new members that resemble the current membership in relevant ways. That's the accrediting associations' reason for existing, isn't it?

Just as new physicians are licensed because they act like and are similar to existing physicians.

I will grant that this kind of arrangement might suppress innovations that don't resemble the existing regime. Providing an avenue for innovation and experiment is one role that state-approved university sectors might conceivably fulfill.

But these schools can't be embraced en-masse just because they aren't RA (or whatever). That's foolishness.

Any new innovation has to prove itself. It has to establish its credibility by means of accomplishment. It has to earn public acceptance, it can't just demand it.

Unfortunately, most of the state approved universities seem sadly short of innovation themselves. They usually seem to be somebody's little money-engine, churning out still more MBAs. They aren't doing anything that 200 RA schools aren't already doing.

I like some of the state-approved schools, but these are the places that offer something new and unusual, something that you just can't find anywhere else.

Bottom line: The state approved schools (and their defenders) are wasting their time by whining about not being members of a club they show no interest in joining. What they need to do is attend to what they are doing and let their accomplishments speak for themselves. They need to raise their own profiles to the point that the professional communities and the public take notice of them. A few are doing that, and I applaud them.

 

Why do you bring up the state approved schools? I never mentioned this subject.


My subject is the fact that NCU gained RA status despite the relationship with SCUPS. Also mentioned was how the RA process was a politically controled experience that may or may not have been fairly executed for all applicant institutions. I contend that if a sizeable donation was made -- under-the-table -- to any of the USDOE accreditors that [an institutions'] chances of gaining accreditation would be improved.

 

Since this is a contention (a purported fact offered to others for consideration) and not an opinion, would you please give us some sort of support for it? Has this occured? Where, when, and with whom? Even if you can't prove it, will you at least allege it? Or is alluding to it with no basis in fact your purpose?

Since I've been endowed by Wes with a professional opinion, here it is: bull****. But I don't have to disprove Wes' contention; the onus is on him to prove it. But I'd settle for a baseless allegation. THAT could be disproved.

(If I've been wrong twice about NCU--that SCUPS would be a problem, and so would the nonresidential doctoral programs--fine. With my shiny, new "professional opion," I can afford to be wrong sometimes. When I graduate next Spring, can I get that opinion upgraded?)

Again, I'm not paid in anyway to comment on distance higher education, despite my chosen trade. So I still contend that "professional" is wrong. But it is convenient for Wes to prop me up as an expert to make his point about me being wrong stronger. Big deal. I'm wrong about something almost every day. But not about the degree mill apologists who tout the utility of their unrecognized credentials. (Not Wes, of course.)

 

DWCox: I contend that if a sizeable donation was made -- under-the-table -- to any of the USDOE accreditors that [an institutions'] chances of gaining accreditation would be improved.

John Bear: Being the curmudgeon that I am, whenever people make statements I don't agree with, from astrology to homeopathy to remote viewing, I ask, politely, "What is the mechanism?" and "Can it be tested?"

Accreditation is a process that involves two independent sizeable groups of people: the visiting team (typically 5 to 10 academics) and the commission that votes (also typically 5 to 10 academics).

If I wish to improve the chances of my new Barnum University, to whom would I make my under-the-table payment? The executive director? But he or she is not involved in the voting process. All the committee members, hoping they were all as dishonest as I was? One or more especially persuasive-seeming and dishonest-seeming members?

I find it immensely unlikely. As unlikely as the location of seven planets the day I was born being related to the fact that I lost my keys last month.

John Bear
Born under the sign of Orion

 

So just because country clubs sometimes accept donations in order to accept new members, the regional accreditors are corrupt?!?!?

How about this Mr. Cox? You contact one of the RA organizations and ask them how much they received in donations over the past 5 years? Then come back here and apologise if the answer was zero or if the answer was greater than zero then come back here and claim that you have at least a sliver of evidence that an RA organization is corrupt and sells accreditation.

Your second paragraph means what? Just because someone's prediction of the future was wrong that the RA organizations are corrupt? What is your point? Do you even have a point except that predicting the future is not an exact science?

 

I note that Mr. Cox apparently doesn't even have a general clue what he's talking about because the RA organizations are NOT part of or even affiliated with the USDOE.

My understanding is that (at least in the past) the representatives of the RA that do the accreditation review come from other RA organizations. So who do you contend is getting this money "under-the-table"? If you want to argue something with slightly less nonsense, why don't you argue that DETC takes money under the table. At least there you could make a logical argument that there's at least someone in a position that could be bribed.

 

And who would that be? DETC is set up just like the regional accrediting bodies - with peer review and an independent commission. If you have any evidence any recognized accrediting body would take a bribe, publish it. Otherwise, I think you owe DETC an apology.

 

Sure,

I know of no evidence of any dishonest wrong doing on the part of DETC. I did not mean to imply such but was only attempting (obviously poorly) to point out to Mr. Cox that RA is really nothing more than an organization made up of the RA schools. My assumption was that DETC was an independent organization as opposed to RA which is run by the member schools. I apologize to DETC and everyone here for my poorly worded post.

Now, Mr. Cox's turn only he also owes specific apologies to John and Rich, IMHO.

 

I’m confused. Which is it? Does the CRCC officially make exceptions to the requirement of an RA degree, or (for you) the point will be MOOT after you are granted an LPC license (I assume because you will then no longer use the CRC designation)? Has the CRCC altered their position? You don’t seem to make that very clear.

Who did you speak to at the CRCC? When I spoke with them in May, they were quite adamant about the regional accreditation requirement. Moreover, what do you mean others have been given approval to act in a manner that violates the Code of Professional Ethics? What are the implications of that? Does that mean that the CRCC sanctions unethical behavior?

But you are correct; if you cease using the CRC designation, the issue of unethical behavior becomes moot. That, however, is a far cry from what you previously stated were your intentions.

On an even more serious note, however, where are you getting your information that the State of Tennessee does not require a RA degree for the LPC license?

According to the Rules of Tennessee Board for Professional Counselors, Marital and Family Therapists, and Clinical Pastoral Therapists – Division of Health Related Boards, the educational requirements are as follows:

• General Rules Governing Professional Counselors
  (Rule 0450-1-.04)
  
  (c) Education. The educational requirements must be completed prior to the date of application.
  
  1. Sixty (60) graduate semester hours, based upon a program of studies with a major in counseling, completed from an institution accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, the Counsel for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs, or a comparable accrediting body.
  
  2. The graduate course work should include, but is not limited to, core areas of (one course may satisfy study in more than one of the study areas):
  *Theories of human behavior, learning and personality
  *Abnormal behavior
  *Theories of counseling and psychotherapy
  *Evaluation and appraisal procedures
  *Group dynamics, theories and techniques
  *Counseling techniques
  *Ethics
  *Research
  *Clinical practicum or internship (pursuant to T.C.A. 63-22-104

By specifying SACS, CACREP (whose membership only includes regionally accredited schools), or comparable, it appears that Tennessee may very well only accept regionally accredited schools for licensure as a Professional Counselor. Moreover, it does not appear that ACCS’s D.Min. in Christian Counseling program (the one you profess to be pursuing), in and of itself, offers the necessary course work to satisfy the graduate course work requirements for LPC licensure in the State of Tennessee.

Therefore, it is altogether possible that the point may not be so MOOT, after all.

 

I kept pressing the MOOT button on my remote control, but all I got from the TV was an argument.

 

The degree mill apologists' logic seems to work this way.
1. I'm so brilliant, tricky, and deserving that I'll get my degree the cheap fast easy way! (The degree mill owner laughs at their victim all the way to the bank.)
2. Anyone that says that employers won't accept my degree mill is a biased liar that doesn't know what they're talking about. Any employer that doesn't accept my degree mill is stupid and I wouldn't want to work for them anyway.
3. Anyone that says anything bad about my degree mill is wrong, evil, stupid, can't know what they're talking about because they haven't attended my degree mill and they're part of a conspiracy to make my degree mill look bad.
4. The accreditting agencies are only a corrupt sham, an exclusive jealous club, irrelevant to my degree mill, anti-american because they don't automaticly accredit my degree mill without even being asked, the RA schools are black balling my degree mill out of fear and jealousy of my degree mill.

Degree mill apologists here's a tip. You need to face the facts and accept reality. You got taken, tricked, scammed, bamboozled, fooled, deceived, taken for a ride, duped, hoodwinked, conned, victimized and just because you've managed to trick a few other people into believing you have a real degree, the rest of the world is not going to fall for your lie.

Have fun,
Bill

 

Gus, maybe you should make sure you have the updated version!

I have included the actual link and of course have pasted some of the page. Please review item 34 of GENERAL RULES GOVERNING PROFESSIONAL COUNSELORS CHAPTER 0450-1,
which of course defines recognized educational institution. Go ahead take a look for yourself. Oh heck, here it is.

(34) Recognized educational institution - Any educational institution that is accredited by a nationally or
regionally recognized educational body.

And oh, BTW even you forgot to research what "or a comparable accrediting body" is defined as, which BTW is part of your quote. Are you getting busy? It appears you might be dropping the ball a bit?
-----------------

On the topic of LPC licensure requirements, my graduate degree in rehabilitation counseling meets all the coursework requirements. I must however, complete another counseling internship though.

Below is the link FYI and convenience.

Good Day!

http://www.state.tn.us/sos/rules/0450/0450.htm

RULES
OF
TENNESSEE BOARD FOR PROFESSIONAL COUNSELORS,
MARITAL AND FAMILY THERAPISTS, AND CLINICAL PASTORAL THERAPISTS
DIVISION OF HEALTH RELATED BOARDS
CHAPTER 0450-1
GENERAL RULES GOVERNING PROFESSIONAL COUNSELORS
TABLE OF CONTENTS
0450-1-.01 Definitions 0450-1-.12 Continuing Education
0450-1-.02 Scope of Practice 0450-1-.13 Professional Ethics
0450-1-.03 Necessity of Certification or Licensure 0450-1-.14 Evidence of Professional Experience
0450-1-.04 Qualifications for Licensure 0450-1-.15 Disciplinary Actions and Civil Penalties
0450-1-.05 Procedures for Licensure 0450-1-.16 Duplicate Certificate or License
0450-1-.06 Fees 0450-1-.17 Change of Address and/or Name
0450-1-.07 Application Review, Approval, Denial, Interviews 0450-1-.18 Mandatory Release of Client Records
0450-1-.08 Examinations 0450-1-.19 Board Meetings, Officers, Consultants, Records, and
0450-1-.09 Renewal of Certificate or License Declaratory Orders
0450-1-.10 Supervision - Post-Masters 0450-1-.20 Consumer Right-To-Know Requirements
0450-1-.11 Retirement and Reactivation of Certificate or License

GENERAL RULES GOVERNING PROFESSIONAL COUNSELORS CHAPTER 0450-1
(Rule 0450-1-.01, continued)
July, 2002 (Revised) 4
(33) Private Practice - Practice of counseling or therapy other than in a public or nonprofit agency or entity.
(34) Recognized educational institution - Any educational institution that is accredited by a nationally or
regionally recognized educational body.
(35) Registrant - Any person who has been lawfully issued a certificate or license.
(36) Relative - Parent, spouse, former spouse, siblings, children, cousins, in-laws (present and former),
aunts, uncles, grandparents, grandchildren, step-children, employees, or anyone sharing the same
household.
(37) Supervisee - An individual who is engaged in post graduate or graduate, supervised experience under
the direction of a supervisor.
(38) Supervision - The ongoing, direct clinical review, for the purpose of training or teaching, by an
approved supervisor who monitors the performance of a person’s supervised interaction with a client
and provides regular documented face-to-face consultation, guidance, and instructions with respect to
the clinical skills and competencies of the person supervised. Supervision may include, without being
limited to, the review of case presentations, audio tapes, video tapes, and direct observation.
(39) Use a title or description of - To hold oneself out to the public as having a particular status by means of
stating on signs, mailboxes, address plates, stationery, announcements, business cards or other
instruments of professional identification.
(40) Written evidence - Includes, but is not limited to, verification from supervisors or other professional
colleagues familiar with the applicant’s work.
Authority: T.C.A. §§4-5-202, 4-5-204, 63-22-102, 63-22-104, and 63-22-120. Administrative History: Original
rule filed October 9, 1986; effective November 23, 1986. Repealed and new rule filed April 29, 1992; effective June
13, 1992. Amendment filed April 16, 1996; effective June 30, 1996. Amendment filed June 18, 1996; effective
September 4, 1996. Amendment filed December 13, 2000; effective February 26, 2001. Amendment filed November
21, 2001; effective February 4, 2002. Amendment filed April 30, 2002; effective July 14, 2002.
0450-1-.02 SCOPE OF PRACTICE. The following shall be considered necessary when addressing the scope of
practice for professional counselors.
(1) Assisting an individual, through the counseling relationship, in a manner intended to facilitate normal
human growth and development, using a combination of mental health and human development
principles, methods and techniques, to achieve mental, emotional, physical, social, moral, educational,
spiritual and/or career development and adjustment through the lifespan.
(2) Rendering or offering to render to individuals, groups, organizations, or the general public any service
involving the application of principles, techniques, methods or procedures of the counseling
profession, including appraisal activities, counseling, consulting and referral activities. Nothing in this
section shall be construed to permit the treatment of any mental, emotional or adjustment disorder
other than marital problems, parent-child problems, child and adolescent antisocial behavior, adult
antisocial behavior, other specified family circumstances, other interpersonal problems, phase of life
problems, other life circumstance problems, occupational problems, and uncomplicated bereavement.
(3) Selecting, administering, scoring, and interpreting instruments designed to assess an individual’s
aptitudes, achievements, or interests, which are used to understand, measure or facilitate such
individual’s normal human growth and development, but shall not include the use of projective
techniques in the assessment of personality, nor the use of psychological or clinical tests designed to
identify or classify abnormal or pathological human behavior, nor the use of individually administered
intelligence tests. Consistent with each counselor’s formal education and training, licensed or certified

 

In your haste to attempt to prove me wrong, you failed to notice that the link I provided is the same as yours.

That would so much more meaningful if the requirements stated that a degree from a “recognized educational institution” was acceptable for the LPC—it doesn’t. It clearly states

• General Rules Governing Professional Counselors
  (Rule 0450-1-.04)
  
  (c) Education. The educational requirements must be completed prior to the date of application.
  
  1. Sixty (60) graduate semester hours, based upon a program of studies with a major in counseling, completed from an institution accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, the Counsel for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs, or a comparable accrediting body.[/b]

Oh, so you did read the part about the educational requirements. Great! As you can see, it doesn’t say, “recognized educational institution.” And no, I didn’t research how the Sate of Tennessee defines “comparable accrediting body,” but then again, it is not my goal to become a LPC in the state of Tennessee. It is quite possible that they will accept national accreditation, and it is just as possible, if not more so, that they won’t. All I did was point out that the rules clearly specify SACS (one of the regional accreditors), and CACREP (who only accredits regionally accredited institutions), therefore the chances are good that they are defining “comparable” as meaning regionally accredited. Otherwise, they could have simply used the term “recognized educational institution” (number 34 from their own definitions, as you so aptly pointed out). Interestingly, the educational requirements for the Clinical Pastoral Therapist licensure does use the term “recognized educational institution,” therefore it appears a distinction is indeed being made.

I am certain of one thing, however. If you had done your research (and you are the one seeking the LPC, right?), and had actually received corroboration from the State of Tennessee that a nationally accredited school met the requirements for licensure, you would have (with much fanfare, I’m sure) stated so in your post. Why don’t you ask them?

No need to get acrimonious. I understand your frustration; it is quite possible that you (having failed, once again, to do the necessary research) are pursuing a degree that may not meet your stated goals. I take solace in the fact that although you may not appreciate being made aware of potential problems and pitfalls in your degree and career plan, I am certain that others that have similar goals do.

 

In general, it is in the best interest of the applicant for counseling licensure to pursue degree programs that are clearly defined as being regionally accredited and, if possible, CACREP approved.

Counseling licensure boards in many states are continuously reviewing, developing and upgrading more stringent criteria and standards for licensure. This is due to the myriad of individuals who have attempted to practice counseling/therapy with less than acceptable credentials. This tightening of the licensure process will continue, with some states being more rigorous in this regard than others.

Becoming embroiled in disputation with a licensure board regarding the viability and validity of coursework from any questionable school that is not congruent with the board's criteria, does not result in an auspicious relationship with board members. In other words it is not the sort of relationship anyone should think of cultivating due to the board's having discretionary and legal powers to deprive an applicant of licensure.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Gus, I have spoken to the necessary professionals with the State of TN, thank you for your suggestion though! Do you really think a person with my education and three professional certification would complete my homework, PLEASE! Having gained three professional certifications I completely understand the need and more important how to determine my related eligibility.

(34) Recognized educational institution - Any educational institution that is accredited by a nationally or
regionally recognized educational body. What about this is confusing to you?

You are wrong on another point you've attempted to make. The statutes VERY CLEARLY point out The CPT credential also requires a degree from an accredited institution. "Recognized Educational Institution." Please refer again one more time, to #34.

Please go waste your time with someone else. I am done for another month or so.

 

-------------------------------------

Gus, I am certain of one thing, I am confident that you have already contacted the State of Tennessee, Department of Health -, Health Related Boards (no different than you contacted CRCC)and learned you are wrong. Otherwise, I am sure you would have posted information conflictual with my report.

Now, you can have the last post to say whatever makes you feel good. I am moving on to other things.