No dissertation for Northcentral University International Dept DBA?

Re: Re: NCU

How can a school guarantee 100% doctorate completion rate upfront? I haven't talked to any that have said anything about this but then again I have not asked for this type of info.

Likely I don't plan to teach anymore than I have been in my lifetime(only taught two classes thus far). I taught an MBA class and a programming class. Both were at solid brick and mortar schools. The MBA class only required a master's. The other class had no such requirement but it was mainly geared for entry level first year computer technology students. They didn't pay much either. The programming class was fairly fun but the MBA class was tougher to teach because the students taxed me with their lax attitudes and endless excuses.

I have few misconceptions regarding external degrees. They just are not as chocked full of utility in the teaching profession. I'm OK with that because I don't plan to be a professor. If all goes well I'll retire from my company and live a happy life just growing tomatoes, harvesting knowledge, watching the Cubs, and being a grandpa.

 

Re: Re: NCU

Good day Ike,
The GSCIS is a *little* more affordable than the business related PhD. For me, it is going to run around $7500k a year out of pocket for the GSCIS PhD.

As for the 70% (or lower) completion rate, I really do not have much personal comparison. While at IU, the business school was fairly tough (top 10 CIS program at the time). Many people dropped out or changed majors, so maybe that is somewhat analogous to the aforementioned attrition / completion rate?!?

I enjoy education and have a passion for technology, so I would hope to have what it takes to complete the program (or any program).

I am sure you have a good source for the information, was this from your own experience at nova? ... or maybe a figure given by a facility member?

Based on what you have shared with the board, it sounds as if there is a bit of a trade off; more time, maybe more difficulty, definitely more money, all for a greater *chance* at securing a teaching position. As you note “I believe that if your goal is to teach fulltime upon completion of your program, a Nova doctorate degree will be very useful.”

Thoughts?

 

Re: Re: NCU

Ike - I can tell you from my experience in the business school, that nearly all of the attrition is self inflicted. There were occasional folks asked to leave due to low grades - but beyond this, nearly everyone who didn't finish chose not to finish the program.

Any doctoral program with a 100% graduation rate would seem to be pretty suspicious to me.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Re: NCU

Ike - I can tell you from my experience in the business school, that nearly all of the attrition is self inflicted. There were occasional folks asked to leave due to low grades - but beyond this, nearly everyone who didn't finish chose not to finish the program.

Nova's programs aren't easy - and everyone doesn't finish. But I found the DBA program to be doable and far preferable to the British or Aussie options with reported 10-37% 5 year graduation rates.

Any doctoral program with a 100% graduation rate would seem to be pretty suspicious to me.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Re: Re: NCU

I concur completely. When I was a doctoral student, only a handful of students in my program were advised by the school to withdraw from the program. However, I know at least ten other students who withdrew from the program on their own volition. Most of these students gave up their quests after trying unsuccessfully for four years to find a professor who would agree to become their dissertation advisor.

 

Re: Re: Re: NCU

I concur completely. When I was a doctoral student, only a handful of students in my program were advised by the school to withdraw from the program. However, I know at least ten other students who withdrew from the program on their own volition. Most of these students gave up their quests after trying unsuccessfully for four years to find a professor who would agree to become their dissertation advisor.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

Couldn't find a dissertation advisor after four years in the program? I don't know how that can happen, but normally, at a traditional bricks & mortar school, the department chair is your advisor for the first semester and, after he/she signs off on one's first semester classes, one's thesis/dissertation committee is appointed ASAP. I simply cannot imagine a program wherein you're not expected to include in your intellectual autobiography/statement of intent some statement to the effect of "If accepted into your grad school, I propose to do a DBA with concentration in Accounting and wish to have as my dissertation advisor one certain Herr Doktor Professor C. P. A. Pfennigpincher."

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

The assumption is that two to three years would be spent mostly on coursework. At the Graduate School of Computer and Information Sciences, students are not assigned to advisors. Students look for advisors. The first step is usually to approach a professor and discuss your dissertation idea with him or her. If he/she thinks that you know what you are talking about, he will ask you to submit your idea paper to him. After perusing your idea paper, he might or might not want to work with you. If he/she doesn't want to be your advisor, you can still approach another professor. Some professors might ask you to rewrite your idea paper and include their suggestions. Others might want you to change the topic or the focus. If nobody likes your idea paper, the only option that remains could be withdrawal from the program.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

I don't know about anyone else, but I would be furious beyond words if I spent four years in a doctoral program, only to have every professor refuse to be my advisor. Isn't that part of their job??

 

But, normally, you are not supposed to wait four years to make such arrangements. You not only state in your statement of intent/intellectual autobiography that you intend to do your DBA in Accounting with Herr Doktor Professor C. P. A. Pfennigpincher as your doctoral preceptor, you also state a possible dissertation topic so that Prof. Pfennigpincher can know whether your interests are consistent with his and then he can make some judgement as to how many new doctoral students he can take on and, by comparing you to the other relevant suspects, accept or reject you. And, at the grad school level, the professor usually gets who the professor wants.

Bruce, unfortunately, sometimes, even if a student is accepted into a program, a professor can either refuse to mentor a thesis/dissertation or do so "with misgivings."

 

Re: Re: Re: NCU

Exactly what percentage of your students would you need to toss into the academic morgue in order to be considered a prestigious grad program? Or even an accreditable one?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

Still, if I were to mention in my statement of intent that I want CPA Pfennigpincher to be my advisor for my DBA Accounting dissertation, and if I were accepted into Nova's doctoral program, and Prof. Pfennigpincher refused to serve on my committee, I would think something is wrong. If I was to approach Pfennigpincher in my first semester in the program and he told me it was too early in the program to even be thinking about that, I would think that something is wrong. Grad students ought to be thinking proactively: Begin with the end in mind, as Prof. Ken Willig used to say. And I can't imagine professors waiting four years to figure out who their mentees are.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

What's up with this? Not sure I'm following this.

 

Committee chair push back

Any applied “real-world” program like a DBA that does not get the student thinking and exploring dissertation topics as soon as possible is missing poorly designed, in my opinion. Knowing the topic allows course papers and other research to be alighted to this goal to say nothing of course selection. A DL and/or distance program that doesn't focus on a clear "track" to the dissertation, incorporating program components to provide synergy in this effort, and lead the student through the process to completion isn't worth it in my opinion.

This form of arrogance and professorial push back in more traditional B & M programs is unbounded, but in an applied program, this spells disaster. Any professor at Nova who has a well respected traditional PhD is there because of their love of teaching and a student centered focus. God knows there couldn’t be any other rational reason, unless they are not full time academics, because they have negated a large portion of their degree by not working at more research intensive institution.

I find it hard to believe that Nova could be this way. It just doesn't make sense to me and goes against what I'd think these folk's motivations logically should be. If these posters are correct that professors have attitudinal problems there, then NSU has a very serious problem. Their doctoral program cost is already an obscenity in a relative sense to other programs within their competitive set, so I can't imagine them willingly giving up strike two through simple managerial incompetence.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

The point I was trying to convey is that if you don't have a viable or a researchable topic (the dissertation topic or idea is not called a proposal at this stage), you might not find any professor who will agree to supervise your dissertation. Professors are not forced to supervise students or hand out topics. Students must approach professors one at a time and discuss their ideas with them. At Nova, dissertation topics are not generally handed out to students. Students generally have to come up with their own idea. They also have to look for a professor who is interested in the topic. Usually, students do not pay much attention to dissertation until they are done with coursework. It takes at least two years to complete the coursework.
Some students spend several months looking for a professor who is willing to supervise their dissertation. Some succeed eventually and some don’t. If a student fails to come up with a researchable topic, his/her chances of remaining in the program will be very shaky …perhaps self-attrition will follow.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

The point I was trying to convey is that if you don't have a viable or a researchable topic (the dissertation topic or idea is not called a proposal at this stage), you might not find any professor who will agree to supervise your dissertation. Professors are not forced to supervise students or hand out topics. Students must approach professors one at a time and discuss their ideas with them. At Nova, dissertation topics are not generally handed out to students. Students generally have to come up with their own idea. They also have to look for a professor who is interested in the topic. Usually, students do not pay much attention to dissertation until they are done with coursework. It takes at least two years to complete the coursework.
Some students spend several months looking for a professor who is willing to supervise their dissertation. Some succeed eventually and some don’t. If a student fails to come up with a researchable topic, his/her chances of remaining in the program will be very shaky …perhaps self-attrition will follow.

 

Re: Committee chair push back

Hey my friend,

It's not easy but it's doable. I did it. I believe that you can also do it. I don't think that Nova has any problem. Doctorates are not supposed be earned easily. You should also be mindful of the fact that Nova is not a for-profit school. If you think that Nova has a problem, I don't know what you would say about other B&M schools.

 

Re: Re: Committee chair push back

I understand what you're saying and appreciate your comments. I was an admitted student in the PhD economics program at Clemson for a year and fully understand the topic. Prior to starting at Clemson, I was an admitted PhD student in the dept of urban and regional planning at Florida State, where I completed my doctoral program statement, including research topic and full committee assignments. They all signed the statement. The strategy of how to get through the process from a B & M perspective (carnagie 1 research extensive) institution, is well known to me.

With an applied program like a DBA, waiting to address dissertation research until after the comps is poor planning on the part of the student and assinine on the part of the program administratin, in my opinion.

Someone above noted that application to PhD programs in B & M world is about writing to specific professors who must be willing to oversee your research, as a matter of application. I've never seen a statement of intent that did not include a student’s intended research focus and alignment to the programs' professors. However, Nova does not ask this and I certainly said nothing about it in my statement and was accepted. Point is that the program needs to accommodate a variety of folks in such an "adult oriented" distance DBA - that's what Nova has been for decades.

From a program administration perspective, to suffer attrition for the reasons you cite, indicates a poorly run program. I appreciate your honesty in bringing this up, given you degree history.

In a round about way, I'm sticking up for Nova, but if you’re right, I'm sorry to hear that. That would be very sad. Because what it implies to me is that the egregious professors are thinking they are in a program that Nova is not, and the students are paying the price for their misplaced arrogance. Because they are a not for profit, perhaps they have slipped into this unfortunate malaise. Heck, they took half a year to even bother responding to my application. I feel like telling them to p..ss off and stop wasting my time, so maybe you're right.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

Ted - Let me clarify my comment. I would be suspicious of a doctoral program with 100% pass rate - and without a rigorous admission requirement or set of qualifying exams. You have to employ some selectivity somewhere. Admissions is one place - requiring a high GMAT, high GPA, demonstrated ability to conduct research, etc. Tough qualifying exams (preferably early in the program) are another place.

There are some top flight B&M schools with nearly 100% pass rates - but look at what they require to get in.

If everyone that has a masters degree and a 3.0 (the usual graduation requirement for a master degree) is accepted by a university and no one ever flunks comps and no one's disseration is ever denied - are there any academic standards in play? I have to wonder.

The goal isn't to fail folks - but drop outs are pretty inevitable in doctoral programs.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

Ike - I can't speak for SCIS, but I didn't observe this to be a problem in SBE. They provided a list of possible chairs - and I don't anyone who gave up without a chair.

Regards - Andy