No dissertation for Northcentral University International Dept DBA?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by carlosb, Jul 14, 2005.

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  1. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

    Okay, Andy. I wasn't necessarily suggesting that 100% of the people with a 3.0 GPA and a master's degree should necessarily automatically get into a doctorate, automatically pass all their classes, automatically pass their comps, and automatically pass their dissertations. Of course, one does not go through gradf school as if on automatic pilot. What I was suggesting is that there are two models of graduate education: one is to see how many of your doctoral students you can knock down and whoever's left standing gets their doctoral degrees. The other would be to see how many you can raise to your level. Of course, even if a given professor (or even an entire school) takes the approach of trying to lift others to their level, there will be some who wash out. But with reported doctoral wash rates of 50% (I believe that figure comes from an old Capella thread), it begins to look like such an attrition rate is an enormous waste of resources. And when a school positions itself as a "learner centered institution," one would think that the model would be one of raising others to your level. And all of this hasn't really answered the question of why committee membership hadn't already been established at the beginning of the learner's program.
     
  2. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

    Okay, Andy. I wasn't necessarily suggesting that 100% of the people with a 3.0 GPA and a master's degree should necessarily automatically get into a doctorate, automatically pass all their classes, automatically pass their comps, and automatically pass their dissertations. Of course, one does not go through gradf school as if on automatic pilot. What I was suggesting is that there are two models of graduate education: one is to see how many of your doctoral students you can knock down and whoever's left standing gets their doctoral degrees. The other would be to see how many you can raise to your level. Of course, even if a given professor (or even an entire school) takes the approach of trying to lift others to their level, there will be some who wash out. But with reported doctoral wash rates of 50% (I believe that figure comes from an old Capella thread), it begins to look like such an attrition rate is an enormous waste of resources. And when a school positions itself as a "learner centered institution," one would think that the model would be one of raising others to your level. And all of this hasn't really answered the question of why committee membership hadn't already been established at the beginning of the learner's program.
     
  3. raristud

    raristud Member

    "Admissions is one place - requiring a high GMAT, high GPA, demonstrated ability to conduct research, etc"

    Nova's current admissions requirement to enter a masters
    program at the Huizenga School of Business and
    Entrepreneurship:

    --- 2.50 GPA

    --- No GMAT or GRE required

    --- 2.25 GPA with GRE or GMAT score


    Hello Dr.Borchers. What are your thoughts in regards to the admissions standards above?

    I believe some of Nova's programs are almost open admissions.
    Nova has their strengths and weaknesses. Reviewing their academic programs, I believe that Nova is spreading itself too thin by creating "wierd" doctoral and masters programs with strange titles. However, Nova is creative and very ambitious. They bring interesting programs to the table. Their tendancy towards lower admission standards is admired. They are giving more students a chance to accomplish a dream ( and they make a profit too ).

    NCU can stretch itself wider by

    - Offering graduate certificate programs
    - Offering an Education Specialist degree
    - Provide more popular distance learning programs
    - going non-profit for state financial assistance.
    - Instead of holding classes by semester. They could have a
    quarterly system to allow for greater cash flow.
    - Lower the amount of tuition for undergrad courses (too
    expensive) in comparison to much cheaper alternatives

    NCU needs to get its act together in terms of
    international business practices and abiding by accreditation
    standards. NCU should not spread itself too thin by
    aggressively seeking out international students early.
    Therefore, missing a huge potential for U.S. customers with the
    dollars to pay NCU tuition.
     
  4. sulla

    sulla New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Committee chair push back

    Very interesting feedback coming from someone who has quite a bit of experience with the Ivy leagues. Nova and the likes are ok but ...Let me ask you (you might have addressed this already, but I can't remember), have you considered prestigious UK universities like the University of Glasgow, Herriot-Watt and many others?

    Tuition for international students should be around the ballmark with NCU, Nova and many other US private schools. http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/dlphd.html

    Also check one of my favorite schools, the University of Kent at Canterbury. They now have PhD (no DLitt) track programs similar to the ones in the US. http://www.kent.ac.uk/studying/postgrad/subjects/business.html#progs


    Sulla
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2005
  5. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

    Ted - good points here. As for the 50% wash rate - what is the cause of wash outs at Capella? As I've suggested from my NSU experience, at least there it isn't the school saying "get out of here". Typically, students decide they can't afford it or find it doesn't meet their needs. A waste? Perhaps - but how do you know if a doctoral program is really for you until you've tried it out?

    The business about knocking students down is common the B&M world. I don't see it in the U.S. DL world. Indeed, the U.S. DL schools seem to operate on the opposite extreme by admitting students that most likely wouldn't gain admission to the B&M world. What I can't comment on is the Brit and Aussie schools. Their reported 37% graduation rate in 5 years (and one Aussie report of 10% graduation) are real causes for concern for perspective students.

    My thoughts are that U.S. DL schools would do themselves and the whole DL world a huge favor by implementing comps early and in a demanding format. Doctoral work in business (and other fields) involves reading and developing research and is fundamentally different than typical MBA courses . I'd suggest comps after the first year of work - after the student has completed some coursework and introductory research courses. The idea of measuring his/her ability to do doctoral work should come before the student has invested a ton of money and time. If a student really can't cut it - schools should let them know as early as possible. In order to make this as objective as possible schools would benefit by using NSU's approach of blind grading by multiple graders.

    As for committees being formed at the beginning - my NSU experience was that each student was captain of his (or her) own fate. You could organize your committee as early as you wanted - or wait until after you finish course work. As a practical matter those that waited to the end often seemed to never finish.

    Regards - Andy


     
  6. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Raristud - my comments were in regards to doctoral programs. NSU does require the GMAT (500 or better) and a 3.25 for their DBA program. We even had one poster in this NG that was turned down.

    On the MBA level - their admissions standards are IMHO unacceptable. If NSU ever hopes to obtain AACSB, they'll have to change.

    Regards - Andy

     
  7. drstrangeglove

    drstrangeglove New Member

    Hi, I suspect this would be aimed at the Asian market. Titles are everything here and a title of Doctor earns a lot of respect. But many want as quick and easy as possible and competition is intense. Local students tend to work hard but learning is by rote and cant generally think for themselves so a dissertation is a major competitive disadvantage. DBA is a massive growth business in Malaysia (where I am living) and I bet I will see this one advertised soon via local colleges.

    So sad I agree to see no disertation. In UK (I am British) move to make it standard as generally its accepted as a minimum

    Bachelors: Small dissertation showing understanding and application of knowledge learnt

    Masters: Short dissertation showing understanding and application of advanced knowledge with some original input and analysis

    Doctors: Long dissertation showing an original contribution to knowledge set in context with current advanced knowledge and practice

    Surely a DBA by exam/coursework only is just a Bachelors degree!

     
  8. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2005
  9. Messagewriter

    Messagewriter New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Committee chair push back

    I looked into these but could not find a good fit in terms of program structure, content and being able to remain in the US 100% of the time. Like everyone, I'm extremely busy. The only way I'd undertake a program is if I could rationalize a nearly 100% probability of completing, based on the time I have to allocate. The English model research degree could be a difficult challenge as apposed to a more course driven model, plus I've got to have finance. I see allot of risk in these programs.

    I'm 44, and if I were younger, I'd have stayed in the B & M program. I have many years of executive decision making. Because of this, I finally realized that I just did not trust the academics in the B & M schools I found them to be deeply entrenched bureaucratic thinkers that really were clueless about how the private sector worked. I would have been better of to have been younger and less experienced because frankly, I had difficult either trusting or respecting them. They had no accountability whatsoever.

    I may settle for NCU, because I think I could punch it out rapidly and will less intrusion into my other affairs. It's grossly inferior to NSU from an academic perspective, but is $48,000 less and with an only 20% chance that I'd use for anything other than a glorified hobby, it may be the best choice.

    I’m surprised that Nova is adding more and not less to their residency requirements. Just since I applied one has to travel to Ft. Lauderdale twice for each of the four methods courses – eight more trips and another $5,000. I am also frustrated at their campus in Tampa, in as much as courses are taught only if they get enough students. And if they teach anything, its management because one has to go to Ft. Lauderdale if one wants finance. Not teaching at least one concentration (management) in Tampa is wrong in my opinion based on what they are charging. They say perhaps even management would have to be taken in Ft. Lauderdale. Assuming that, the program is over $80,000 with modest loss of income and not including amortization expense. I get too many vague answers from Nova that remind me of why I left the B & M schools. I’m no fan of non-profits for this reason. Go figure.
     
  10. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    In my B&M PhD program, any proposals regarding dissertation advisors were ignored until the end of the 3rd quarter. This was a policy established to allow the faculty to put the students through their paces. At the end of this period, students met individually with faculty members to discuss their prospects and potential research topics. The students then each submitted a ranked list of choices, and the faculty met to decide the assignments. There was significant competition amongst the faculty for the best students. On the other hand, students whose performance was marginal or whose interests or proposed approach didn't match those of their chosen advisors would be left out in the cold. These people would typically leave the program with a Master's degree after another quarter, or in some cases would complete a mini research project (essentially on probation) for a year before trying again.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2005
  11. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NCU

    During my time at SCIS, no such list was ever distributed. However, students were encouraged early in the program to initiate contacts with any professor whom they would want to work with (students don’t have to wait until after the coursework but dissertation idea paper must not be submitted before finishing the coursework).

    Actually, I know several students who couldn’t find a chair. Two of these students eventually received their doctorate from Capella University. In other words, they couldn’t find a professor who would accept to work with them from start to finish. It's not that that they didn't work with any professor. Perhaps they worked with one or more professors for a while but were abandoned along the way either because they were not doing what they were told to do or because their topics were not considered viable dissertation topics.
     
  12. cehi

    cehi New Member

    Ike: "Most of these students gave up their quests after trying unsuccessfully for four years to find a professor who would agree to become their dissertation advisor."


    Cehi: I have much difficulties understanding this statement. Are you sure about this or is it the fact that these students left for other reasons? I think the path to the attainment of a doctoral degree also included the availability of and guidance from graduate advisers. I think the presence of adequate graduate advisers are the reasons for the program existence. It would seems satisfying to know that these students were let go after four years for poor performance. Thank you.
     
  13. cehi

    cehi New Member

    Ike,

    I am a bit late to the discussions. I can now see that the debates are are already on-going. Thank you.
     
  14. Ike

    Ike New Member

    HI Cehi,

    Yes, the thread has been going on for a while. Like I tried to explain earlier, it's not a question of finding a professor to talk to about your topic. It's a question of diligence, perseverance, and attentiveness. Some students don't do what they were asked to do. If you are told to modify or overhaul your topic by a professor, you have to do it. Otherwise he/she will dump you.
     
  15. Ike

    Ike New Member


    Note that two to three years of coursework are factored (included) in the four years. Although students don’t have to wait until after their coursework to start discussing their potential dissertation topics with a professor, the actual (official) submission of dissertation idea paper to a potential advisor doesn’t take place until the coursework is completed. The professor may (1) reject the paper, (2) advise the student to modify or overhaul the idea paper, (3) refer the student to another professor, (3) suggest a new topic altogether, etc. It’s up to the student to demonstrate that he is capable of completing a doctoral level research.
    Oxpecker has eloquently explained the point that I was trying to convey.
     
  16. raristud

    raristud Member


    Hmmm. How about this one:

    Troy State University at Dothan -
    http://dothan.troy.edu/Distance/mba/admission_standards.htm

    - 2.0 GPA Undergrad
    - Unconditional Admissions if you have a masters
    - 30 credits plus comprehensive
    - 12 grad credits transferable allowed

    Heriot Watt University -
    http://www.ebsmba.com/howToStart_admission.asp

    - No Bachelors needed. Just pass three courses
    - Have bachelors degrees. Open admissions
     
  17. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Both the University of Phoenix and the University of Maryland use the abbreviation DM for Doctor of Management, and I'm sure there must be others. DM as in Doctor of Music comes as a bit of a surprise, as the applied doctorate in music is usually the DMA (Doctor of Musical Arts).
     
  18. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Interesting. I have only been able to locate this degree (D.M.) at the University of Phoenix and University of Maryland University College (the U. of Maryland awards the Ph.D., not the D.M.), a school called Lawrence Technical and a couple of foreign schools. Pudue University has awarded the Doctor of Management as an honorary, not academic, degree. Case Western, has an executive doctor of management (EDM) Webster University has a D.Mgt.

    Since it is not on the USDOE/NSF list, these degrees must either be unknown to those entities or must not be research doctorates. Of course, my university could probably make up its own degree titles as well. How about a Master of Biological Arts (MBA)? :)
     
  19. JamesK

    JamesK New Member

    What about an honourary doctorate for those who provide charitable donations to the school? A D.Phil. - Doctor of Philanthropy. :p
     
  20. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Couldn't that also be a Ph.D.? ;)
     

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