No dissertation for Northcentral University International Dept DBA?

Re: Tuition considerations

It's a difficult issue. Schools like NCU are 100% online. If you look at the distance MBA at Duke University for example, it's about a hundred grand. What should a Vietnamise student pay for this? You see, with that Duke MBA, that student can take a job away from anyone, anywhere in the world because it's a top program. I don't have an answer, but as more and more B & M schools come online, this issue will become more upfront I'd think. Should the tax payers in the United States pay higher taxes so public research universities in the US (Duke, Wisconsin, Penn State, U Texas, etc) can award degrees to students abroad "in need" and recover only a fraction of the cost? I assure you these universities will seek the difference from the federal government, hence our higher taxes to pay for it.

Should NCU students pay the $10,000 in higher fees to subsidize others? I don't know, but your statement about "some universities (or any other business) would lower the cost" suggests to me that we aren't on the same page. I realize it just symantics in your quote, but NCU can't reduce the costs. They can only reduce the price.

I beleive price discriminating to favor those abroad in products that have full utility in the same market where others pay a higher price if fundamentally wrong from an ethical business standpoint. My original comments about NCU's statement that they needed to reduce costs for the reasons you cite are a false statement on NCU's part. They are simply capturing more net profit I beleive, and screwing their US students in the process. It's just bad business in my opinion.

 

Re: Re: Tuition considerations

At least "poor American" would have access to the loan program. Low income Americans have far more educational opportunities than, say, middle income Ukrainians. I used to make at least twice the average pay back in Ukraine. (not that I'm extra smart or something - living in the capital and being in IT gave me an advantage. Some might say "unfair advantage".) My wife used to make more than I did. Now she's out of state in all 50 states, can't afford neither Touro nor NCU, has no access to loans and can't even work to cover her tuition.
I'm not complaining. We made our decisions, and we work to improve our opportunities. I actually thank this country for opportunities we do have. It is the land of opportunities. But having sympathy for "poor American"? You've been born in this country, you know the language, you have financial aid, you have the SSN - go to work!

 

Re: Re: Tuition considerations

They do no such thing. Graduate students from abroad are either paying full price or work for their tuition. Those few undergrads who do gei their tuition paid by Uncle Sam participate in programs with names like "Act to Support Freedom", designed to help USA achieve it's political goals. (I'm not against that either. For example, I applaud the efforts of U. S. NGOs in promoting democracy in Ukraine - I'm sure ASF grants and Edward Muskie Fellowships recipients played their role - although not the greatest, mind you!).

You have higher utility on your MBA. You already here!

Think of it this way: would you be paying more or less if the international program would not exist?


P. S.: BTW, McDonalds is also doing this. Big Mac is much cheaper in Kyiv. Better, too.

 

Re: Re: Re: NCU HUT

This is not true if you log on to Amazon UK
http://www.amazon.co.uk , you can often find a different price for the same book,the if you log on to Amazon http://www.amazon.com (even when figuring the exchange rate). Sometimes even with shipping to the US it's cheaper in the UK. For example the new harry potter book is Selling for £8.99($15.75 US)(at the time of this post)and in the US it is selling for $16.99(US). That means it is exactly $1.75 cheaper in the UK..of course this is a small amount but there are bigger ones but I am not going to spend half the night finding examples.

For those who are interested:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747581088/ref=amb_center-1_10701201_1/026-8200901-8002018

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0439784549/ref=amb_center-1_10158101_1/104-9498495-3728755

 

Re: Re: Tuition considerations

It is not a question of whether I am willing to pay 10k more for a degree from NCU than a Vietnamese. The issue is much bigger than that. The bottom line: It's all about supply and demand. In the U.S., there is a sufficient demand for NCU degrees, so the prices will remain the same (or will naturally rise). However, NCU now has it's foot in the overseas market in Vietnam. Frankly, that is a very difficult nut to crack (just ask any American who has tried to do business with the Vietnamese). By offering the Vietnamese extraordinarily low prices, I speculate that NCU has a couple of objectives, which I'll broach in one second. Just a reminder: The overseas tuition is extremely low by our stateside standards, but is extraordinarily high by by their standards.

First, NCU is establishing a difficult-to-obtain educational marketshare. This is an extremely difficult feat. Second, only influential Vietnamese will be able to afford the high NCU tuition rates. The tuition is extremely high by Vietnamese standards. If NCU can get enough influential Vietnamese citizens as alumni, then it would open the door even wider for seizing an even larger educational marketshare in the future. Think of it from a financial perspective.

A vision or a strategy is clearly behind what is going on and it's not necessarily nefarious, though I have not broached the topic of RA standards, which may or may not be a legitimate issue for the future of NCU.

For the above reasons, if I am the owner of a school and if I want to charge an American 10k more than a Vietnamese - what is that to you? You are still being offered a 100% DL RA degree that is competitively priced. You have no room to b*tch. The blessing of another man isn't my cursing. There is plenty to go around.

 

Re: Re: Tuition considerations

A taxpayer supported university is vastly different than a privately owned school. A taxpayer funded university can be held accountable for how the public monies are spent overseas e.g. by offering half-off the tuition in Vietnam. But the owner of a privately owned school can pretty much spend his money any way he pleases with no strings attached. He can give away scholarships or he can reduce the tuition overseas for the Vietnamese. It's his money and it's his school and he can do what he wants.

 

The issue isn't money. Things cost what they cost, and market forces drive those. If you want NCU's HUT prices, move to Hanoi.

The issue IS the DBA without the dissertation. The same people that run NCU posted that information. Now we have an e-mail from someone saying that it is a mistake. Damn right, a mistake in judgment. But whose? NCU's. There is no reason to believe HUT's officials were over-reaching--they're not the ones running the website.

I suspect this is a SCUPS thing under an NCU banner. I've always had trouble with this (NCU/SCUPS) dual arrangement. How can people who should be striving to run a high-quality program (NCU) purposely run one held to a much lower standard (SCUPS)? And if they do, there should be a wall between them so thick you couldn't miss it or cut through it. Otherwise, this is a SCUPS thing, conducting degree programs in Hanoi and awarding NCU degrees for them.

 

That could very well be true. It was pointed out a long time ago that the owner of NCU is also the owner of SCUPS. But nobody blinked an eye.

 

Agreed. It's a very depressing turn of events, especially for those (including me) who were considering NCU.

I certainly hope that the North Central Association gets involved with this. I don't want to see NCU lose their accreditation, but a serious dope-slap is in order.

 

Your sentiment is well received for sure. Yet, I think eyes were at least half open to SCUPS. There were many posts a few years back, and as earlier as this year, on the SCUPS-NCU relationship.

 

Have you written NCU off at this point due to all of the negative "vibes"? For me, I am looking at other options but am eagerly waiting to see what happens. I am not totally writing them off the list but am forced to go back and do some more thinking on the topic.

People on the board do seem to want them to certainly succeed. They just need to stay the course of accredited standards and not try to pull fast ones for fast bucks. Maybe sever the relationship with SCUPS(like that will happen). What do you think the NCA will do to NCU...if anything?

 

Reference the Vietnamese Hanoi University of Technology, it is unknown how long the below listed links will remain online, but here they are for scrutny. Please note that the syllabus for SCUPS and for NCU are one and the same. There is no distinction between the two.

• Northcentral University/SCUPS
  Syllabus for Organizational Behavior, MGT 506,
  click here for Word document or click here for HTML.
  .
• Northcentral University/SCUPS
  Syllabus for Human Resource Management, MGT 503,
  click here for Word document or click here for HTML.
  .
• Interesting quote: "I enrolled initially at SCUPS and later transferred to NCU for my dissertation."
  Source.

 

SCUPS

This is the first time I've heard of SCUPS. The courses are the same for sure.

Is SCUPS considered a mill on this forum? It has no accredidation does it?


California's Sec of State site http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowList?QueryCorpName=Southern+California+University&startnumber=50

has a few corporations with Donal Hecht's name on them. The suspended status can come from a vairety of reasons, including just blowing off filing of simple annual reports. I have no idea abou these.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SUMMIT UNIVERSITY
Number: C0834979 Date Filed: 12/20/1977 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C1637393 Date Filed: 3/20/1989 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
* 3301 W. LINCOLN
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
18062 IRVINE BLVD
TUSTIN, CA 92680

Corporation
SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL AND CAREER STUDIES
Number: C1133814 Date Filed: 2/2/1983 Status: dissolved
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701

This one appears to be the school currently operating, but I'm not sure who Stanton is - probably an attorney.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C0880278 Date Filed: 12/27/1978 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
Agent for Service of Process
CAROL A STANTON
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705

 

SCUPS

This is the first time I've heard of SCUPS. The courses are the same for sure.

Is SCUPS considered a mill on this forum? It has no accredidation does it?


California's Sec of State site http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowList?QueryCorpName=Southern+California+University&startnumber=50

has a few corporations with Donal Hecht's name on them. The suspended status can come from a vairety of reasons, including just blowing off filing of simple annual reports. I have no idea abou these.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SUMMIT UNIVERSITY
Number: C0834979 Date Filed: 12/20/1977 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C1637393 Date Filed: 3/20/1989 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
* 3301 W. LINCOLN
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
18062 IRVINE BLVD
TUSTIN, CA 92680

Corporation
SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL AND CAREER STUDIES
Number: C1133814 Date Filed: 2/2/1983 Status: dissolved
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701

This one appears to be the school currently operating, but I'm not sure who Stanton is - probably an attorney.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C0880278 Date Filed: 12/27/1978 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
Agent for Service of Process
CAROL A STANTON
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705

 

SCUPS

This is the first time I've heard of SCUPS. The courses are the same for sure.

Is SCUPS considered a mill on this forum? It has no accredidation does it?


California's Sec of State site has a few corporations with Donald Hecht's name on them. The suspended status can come from a vairety of reasons, including just blowing off filing of simple annual reports. I have no idea abou these.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SUMMIT UNIVERSITY
Number: C0834979 Date Filed: 12/20/1977 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C1637393 Date Filed: 3/20/1989 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
* 3301 W. LINCOLN
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
18062 IRVINE BLVD
TUSTIN, CA 92680

Corporation
SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL AND CAREER STUDIES
Number: C1133814 Date Filed: 2/2/1983 Status: dissolved
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701

This one appears to be the school currently operating, but I'm not sure who Stanton is - probably an attorney.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C0880278 Date Filed: 12/27/1978 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
Agent for Service of Process
CAROL A STANTON
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705

 

SCUPS

This is the first time I've heard of SCUPS. The courses are the same for sure.

Is SCUPS considered a mill on this forum? It has no accredidation does it?


California's Sec of State site http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowList?QueryCorpName=Southern+California+University&startnumber=50

has a few corporations with Donal Hecht's name on them. The suspended status can come from a vairety of reasons, including just blowing off filing of simple annual reports. I have no idea abou these.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SUMMIT UNIVERSITY
Number: C0834979 Date Filed: 12/20/1977 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
3301 W LINCOLN AVE
ANAHEIM, CA 92801

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C1637393 Date Filed: 3/20/1989 Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
* 3301 W. LINCOLN
ANAHEIM, CA 92801
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
18062 IRVINE BLVD
TUSTIN, CA 92680

Corporation
SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL AND CAREER STUDIES
Number: C1133814 Date Filed: 2/2/1983 Status: dissolved
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701
Agent for Service of Process
DONALD HECHT
12756 E ALCHESTER
CERRITOS, CA 90701

This one appears to be the school currently operating, but I'm not sure who Stanton is - probably an attorney.

Corporation
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY FOR PROFESSIONAL STUDIES
Number: C0880278 Date Filed: 12/27/1978 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
Agent for Service of Process
CAROL A STANTON
1840 E 17TH ST #240
SANTA ANA, CA 92705

 

While they are unaccredited, Oregon's ODA approves degrees from SCUPS (but only the Psychology PhDs).

 

If the product were producted in Hanoi and sold there, I'd tend agree. Here, we have American costs and Hanoi prices - a different scenario. To the extent that schools like NCU get a few hundred of these doctoral degrees out in less developed countrys, I predict the rational implication of that is that the online teaching fees to instructors will go down in the US. Whether US student's tuition is reduced correspondinly will be determined by the competitive forces in play. Initially, I suspect it will be a windfall to online universities line Touro and NCU, until other players put downward pressure on their tuition rates.

It seems to me that there are two distinct issues: one being the geographic price issue and the other whether they are peddling doctoral degrees without dissertations intentionally. I do not see the discussion in this thread as one or the other.

PS: I have no idea why my posts above copied. Sorry.

 

Re: SCUPS

The SCUPS association is made even more evident based on a careful look at NCU's network.

An NSlookup and hostname scan reveals that NCU operates with a full class-C address space and network on Qwest. Additionally, the geo-location information for each of the network addresses and hostnames (servers) show they all reside in Prescott, AZ.

Qwest Communications NET-QWEST-BLKS-4 (NET-65-112-0-0-1)
65.112.0.0 - 65.127.255.255

NORTHCENTRAL UNIVERSITY 08231-65-116-240-0 (NET-65-116-240-0-1)
65.116.240.0 - 65.116.240.255

ADDRESS HOSTNAME
65.116.240.1 roadrunner.ncu.edu
65.116.240.33 dev.admin.ncu.edu
65.116.240.35 dev.www.ncu.edu
65.116.240.40 dev-admin.scups.edu
65.116.240.41 dev-learners.scups.edu
65.116.240.42 dev-mentors.scups.edu
65.116.240.43 dev-www.scups.edu
65.116.240.45 dev.learners.ncu.edu
65.116.240.46 dev.mentors.ncu.edu
65.116.240.55 mail.scups.edu
65.116.240.66 mail.ncu.edu
65.116.240.67 www.ncu.edu
65.116.240.72 eedusa.com
65.116.240.74 www.scups.edu
65.116.240.77 mbadistancelearning.com
65.116.240.78 psychologydegreesonline.com
65.116.240.79 businessdegreesonline.com
65.116.240.80 degreesonline.org
65.116.240.88 www.northcentraluniversity.org
65.116.240.91 www.bbadegreesonline.com
65.116.240.92 www.lawdegreesonline.com
65.116.240.93 scholarshipadvice.info
65.116.240.94 nogmat.com
65.116.240.95 psychdegreesonline.com
65.116.240.96 distancelearninginformation.com
65.116.240.97 humanresourcemanagers.org
65.116.240.98 phddegreesonline.com
65.116.240.99 www.international-center-for-distance-education.com
65.116.240.100 mentors.scups.edu
65.116.240.101 learners.scups.edu
65.116.240.104 alumni.ncu.edu

Interestingly, I noticed on several of the non-NCU sites that accreditation is presented as unimportant unless the school is looking for access to federal dollars.

For example:
_________________________________

Is accreditation important?

"There are over 100 different accrediting agencies. Most are designed to act as oversight for the government so they don’t have to spend as much time regulating colleges. If a college does not wish to have access to federal dollars there is no real reason that they would need to have accreditation."

http://businessdegreesonline.com/
http://psychologydegreesonline.com
_________________________________

Such statements are almost amusing since there is hardly a page of content on any of the NCU sites that does not prominently display their NCA accreditation. I wonder if NCA/CHEA shares this view surrounding accreditation.

All of this just seems hard to swallow when the content and messages are managed and delivered from the same source. I also struggle with rationalizing why any school (or education group) would operate under two totally different fronts, guidelines and principles unless the rules, standards and external oversight required of one entity are being substantially ignored or manipulated (lowered) by the other.

I would think the best approach for NCU to take would be to simply dispose of the SCUPS and associated relationships, or work to bring all programs under NCA/CHEA's oversight and criteria for accreditation.

Tom

 

So maybe that is how they do the cheap tuition there. One signs up at SCUPS, completes most of the work there, and then transfers on over to NCU to do the capstone project or dissertation.

It's incredible that they let a comment like that go on their website. Indeed, NCA needs to do something here for certain. For that fact, one might as well sign up at Kennedy-Western and then transfer on into NCA. It might be a bargain that way.

Are there any OFFICIAL partnerships with SCUPS? I don't think they advertise any. If not then Kennedy-Western work might be as good.

I bet that NCU will be working more than a cow's tail in fly season to get this comment off the site now that it is found by the forum.