No dissertation for Northcentral University International Dept DBA?

Ike: "A little correction....

It is six or seven years and usually a minimum of six years plus 1 year internship. At OAU (formally Unife), it's seven years plus 1 year internship. It has always been like that."


Cehi: Thank you. I stand corrected. Actually, I meant six years. My mind and my fingers were out of sync (lol). Thank you so much for catching the error. I appreciate it. Thank you.

 

NCU HUT

This whole affair is unfortunate.

I think NCU should have accreditation pulled if they peddle crap, but I don't think this could possibly happen as they are up in 2007 for review. Having that federal hole punched in their card IS their lifeblood and I choose to believe they will act in their best interest.

I suspect the HUT thing may be a carry over from longer term discussions that started way before NUC was awarded accreditation and the HUT folks are just trying to cash in on some promises, perhaps made by NCU years ago or maybe not, in an effort to score added value on NCU's new accreditation.

Also, I think NCU is likely adopting a typical practice in economics called "price discrimination". Drug companies in the US are masters at this. We as US citizens bear all the development costs of drugs and they full cost plus the products to us while selling them abroad at marginal cost, yet those sales drops right to their bottom line. NCU's argument that they must reduce prices so HUT students can afford it is not credible. That HUT students don't have to travel to the US already makes NCU dirt cheap, as it does for US citizens also. Thus, they are just picking some extra bucks abroad by price discriminating - setting prices to the max of what individual markets will bear and simply riding the demand curve down.

My NYU MS had 45% Asians paying $100,000 for that degree and only about half intended to return home. If NCU sells the degree product for a low enough price, those folks need not travel far to recover the investment, so maybe we won't see them over here. Price discrimination works great for the seller if the markets don’t' get mixes. As someone pointed out, if any undercharged folks show up in the US where the prices are lower, NCU students should be furious.

This raises an interesting point. Why can't a Vietnamese NCU graduate teach in the US and compete directly with those who paid the full cost? Since most with these DL degrees produce online teachers anyway, the answer is that they can and surely will because the NCU product is good anywhere in the world, and even more places if one is bilingual? Thus, American students should be very pissed about the price discrimination issue and demand that NCU adopt a single price. I have not considered this, yet it may be unfair to make a direct comparison without taking the exchange rate into account, as NCU is likely charging American dollars. It may be mush less than $10,000 in a relative sense. It's interesting to note the number of foreign online "mentors" already on NCU's list.

I wonder. Anyone can hire a computer programmer from a former Soviet state for peanuts and do it over the internet. Does NCU see a vast pool of folks willing to work (teach online courses) for peanuts in Vietnam? Don't know but if they could cut their subcontracted payroll in half by using Vietnamese teachers yet charge Americans what they are charging for tuition, anyone can do the math on that scenario. Yet, this strategy is old hat and involves the entire outsourcing issue the US is currently facing. I want to make it clear that I am not making any derogatory statements about Vietnam or her citizens.

I was talking to Keith Harman yesterday but did not mention this.

Just some thoughts.

 

Re: NCU HUT

Two things here:

1) Maybe their costs are less in Vietnam. I'm guessing that the cost of living is less in Vietnam than it is in the States, so I'm sur the Vietnamese professors are making less. And maybe the rent on their buildings in Vietnam is less. etc.

2) You can only charge what the market will bear. If you charge the same tuition for your Vietnamese program as you charge for your American program, likely very few will be able to afford it.

 

Re: NCU HUT

I beg to differ. As someone already pointed out, even discount price might be too expensive for vast majority of Vietnamese.

Here, you contradick yourself. So paying them half the salary is OK, and charging them half tuition somehow not?

BTW, I seriously doubt Vietnamese MBAs are any real competition to americans. You can BLAME them for "taking YOUR job away", that's for sure!

 

have you mentioned that the

http://www.ncuinternational.com/

has an auto-forwarding to www.ncu.edu (now) ?

 

Re: NCU HUT

One would hope. Yet, people, and organizations, often do the exact opposite of what others think the best interest is.

I don't recall seeing this HUT thing a year ago on the website. I might have missed it. But even if so they should have cleaned their act up like this before the accreditors came to take a look at the operations. I would think something like this to be a red flag for acceditors when looking at a school.

I agree. They were selling an inferior degree there and doing a cut-rate price on it. With no dissertation you don't have to have a doctoral committee right? You can then charge less. For the Master's degrees I don't see how operating costs, for an on-line degree, would be any different for a Hanoi student vs an American student.

I work with many Indians, Chinese, and Pakistanis. It's the nature of IT work. Some work for me and others I work with in India. We talk a lot. One of the things they want is an American degree. They believe this makes them more marketable HERE. Not their home country. They want an American degree to come here. I spoke with a Citrix guy in Madras two months back that was taking on-line classes for a master's through Florida State U. He was hoping to parlay that into a job in America to make "big money" as he put it. The conversation yesterday at lunch was that $1600/mo in India(comment from an Indian) was great money. Here, they can make 38K/yr.

Let's take even the "globalist" stand here. If you are having to compete against someone in another country for your job then in this scenario the VN people, taking the NCU degrees, will still be your competitors...eventhough they are not on US soil. Thus, they are still using the same credentials as you but did not do the work nor pay the higher price for tuition you did.

I agree again. So, what should others being charged the greater tuition do in this case?

I can see Hanoi U charging less for their countrymen and us more. However, this is a reversal. Since Univ of Houston is there at Hanoi, I wonder if they are cutting their tuition. I doubt it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

 

Re: Re: NCU HUT

A splendid typo. Contradict with a fillip.

 

Along with your questions, I’m left with a few more:

1. Who is the responsible party for the error? Is it SCUPS, AEF or a SCUPS affiliate?

2. Why is faculty for the NCUI (NCU/HUT) program basically the same faculty listed for SCUPS? See the following:

http://www.hut.edu.vn/cictt/ncu/
http://www.scupsint.com/professors.htm

The listed NCU/HUT professors...

*Dr. Charles Bisanz is an organizational consultant, teacher, writer and attorney. He is President of Innovation Technologies, Ltd., Minnesota.

*Dr. Harry Bury, Professor of Management, Baldwin-Wallace College, Ohio.

*Prof. Robert Dalton is a faculty of George Washington University, President of D&D Association in Washington D.C.

*Dr. Joseph Daly, Attorney at Law, Professor of Law at Hamline Law School, Minnesota and Arbitrator of the International Commerce Court.

*Dr. Paul T. McGurr is a Professor of Finance and Accounting at Ashland Business School in Ohio.

*Dr. Lois Vietri is a Professor at the Maryland University for over 20 years.

*Prof. Kazbeck, is an attorney at law in California and a Law Professor at the SCUPS

With the exception of Lois Vietri, all of the professors from the NCU/HUT list are also listed on the SCUPS website (http://www.scupsint.com/professors.htm). Additionally, the NCU/HUT website also shows that Robert Dalton is the current President of AEF, which promotes (or works with) both NCU and SCUPS programs (http://www.american-edu.org/programs.htm ).

3. Is this information possibly incorrect too?

4. Is the NCU/HUT program really an NCU program (accredited) or is it possibly a SCUPS program (unaccredited)? The line between the two entities in this case appears to be somewhat obscure.

5. Does SCUPS jointly leverage, market or sell NCU's programs, accredited status or association on behalf of its own programs (under the NCU brand or other identity) to its Asian affiliations?

6. In what way, if any, is AEF, SCUPS or its faculty and staff associated with the NCU/HUT degree and or delivery of the program?

Perhaps, if these questions were answered or clarified satisfactorily, concerns surrounding the AEF, NCU, NCUI, SCUPS and HUT interrelationships could be put to rest.

Tom

 

I am sure many non-profit and for-profit corporations that are "Ivy Leagues and 1st tiers","2nd, 3rd, 4th, and toilet tiers", have been caught doing things that are considered no-no's in the eyes of accreditation. NCU has been caught. Like a teenager it is rebelling. Like an arrested adult who has "leaves" in his/her possession and thus denies it.

When huge untapped business opportunities and hunger for dollars exist, academic institutions may try and go over policy and compliance. With competition and global opportunities in china, vietnam, india, and africa, rule breaking is tempting for any corporation and government institution. However, NCU to this day has around 1168 students in its roster. They need to be on their P's and Q's with all the potential students they can recruit especially in the United States.

If NCU decides to reduce tuition overseas, I understand the motive for doing so. As an incorporated entity, they have the right to do so. However, a student in vietnam may have to pay the same fees if enrolled at Nova Southeastern, Capella, and other distance education institutions. Am I correct?

It is good that students and potential customers can mobalize an organization to look in the mirror and see its blunders. It will probably be a slap on the hand, a wake up call, and eye opener for NCU.

I ask tough and irritating ( To NCU and Staff ) questions because I want NCU to succeed. Distance Education has many advantages and Northcentral University has the potential to offer services that potential customers may need in corporations, governments, and us citizens in many types of geographic and socioeconomic locations.


Ray

 

Re: Re: NCU HUT

And that bothers you, because?

So you want to keep your advantage of being born in a wealthy society, having citizenship, knowing the language, etc., but the guy in Vietnam should give up his (pretend) advantage? His reduced tuition, I assure you, still feels more expensive for him than "steeper" price you pay - for him.

Being able to work less for the same degree is just wrong, of course.

 

I suppose my curiosity is getting the best of me, but the more I look at the underlying information, the more interconnected NCU appears to be with SCUPS and AEF.

A Whois search shows that NCU, SCUPS, NCUI and AEF appear to share the same network, systems and IT resources.

NCU
IP Adress: 65.116.240.67
IP Location: US(United States)-Arizona-Prescott

Technical Contact:
Jerry McArthur [xxxx]@ncu.com
Northcentral University
505 W. Whipple St.
Prescott, AZ 86301
UNITED STATES

SCUPS
IP Address: 65.116.240.74
IP Location: US(United States)-Arizona-Prescott

Technical Contact:
Jerry McArthur [xxxx]@ncu.com
IT Manager
Southern California University for Professional Studies
1840 E. 17th Street #240
Santa Ana, CA 92705-8605


NCUInternational
IP Address: 209.217.36.7
IP Location: US(United States)

Registrant/Admin Contact:
Jerry McArthur (CTLGDN-241025) [xxxx]@ncu.com
505 W. Whipple Street
Prescott, AZ 86301
US

AEF
IP Address: 207.217.36.7
IP Location: US(United States)

Admin/Tech Contact:
Patrick Doan
1850 E. 17th Street, #215
Santa Ana, CA 92705
US

A separate observation (which hopefully means nothing)….

The cached version of the American Education Foundation (AEF) URL (american-edu.org) from back in 2002 through 2003 show it to be the American Education Institute that offered online MBA and MSCS degrees. The site touts that you could earn the degrees within a matter of weeks.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021212224327/american-edu.org/index.html
Here is the timeline of changes: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://american-edu.org

The site was re-registered to AEF/Patrick Doan and with the same IP address as the NCUInternational.com website during April of 2004, so I hope that there were no prior associations with AEI. Perhaps Dr. Bear or others on this board can tell us more about the American Education Institute.

Tom

 

This may or may not be true other schools. I don't know. However, all I can say is that this is for sure a black eye against NCU. They are closely tied to SCUPS and in my book this may mean that future temptations to stray might be overwhelming. If SCUPS is calling the shots then what is NCU going to do?

You would think that all the money and time spent on accreditation would mean that they want to stay on course to keep it. Maybe it signifies money problems at the school that they would start heading into this path? That's a sure sign of probationary trouble then.

Someone ran a D&B for NCU and found that it was OK. I think NCU potential students need to approach this decision a bit more cautiously in light of all this. It's spooked me for sure. I'm definitely again weighing my options. Think I'll do what Carlosb did here and search out Touro.

This forum is great. I learn a great deal here and I think we keep schools on their toes to stay on the straight and narrow. Hopefully, more people, especially potential students in DL programs, will read this forum.

 

Funny you should say that. Just for the heck of it I Googled "Touro University International" MBA Hanoi and was surprised to find:

http://www.csdvietnam.com/english/Training/MBA_K3.htm

Entrance to the Program will include:

1/ Preliminary Selection through CV and application documents

2/ Examination (writing an assignment about some economic, social general issue)

3/ Interview by English

Dead-line: May 10th, 2003

Examination date: May 15th, 2003

Package Tuition: US $ 7,500 (seven thousand five hundred dollars)

 

How much is a TUI MBA for a US student?

Look who else is teaching there:

http://www.csdvietnam.com/english/whatnew.htm

 

Re: Re: NCU HUT

Hi Ted,

I'm guessing, but since the program is taught in English, I suspect that the same folks are doing the teaching. This is simple price discrimination where the Vietnamise are paying in a very different relation to marginal costs than are Americans. If anyone in the world logs onto Amazon, they pay the same price. What would NCU charge someone in a central African country? Discrimination ultimately dillutes the value of the US degree holders, but that's just my opinion. The NCU/HUT deal could offer Vietnamise students some form of favorable financing and/or scholorships. Surley they can make something up if they have to without tanking the price.

 

Re: Re: NCU HUT

I met a Russian who was in the MBA program at Fisher College at Ohio State in 2000. He had an excellent degree and a find business consulting job in Moscow, that paid him a whopping $225 per week. Guess what he was paying Ohio State - the same as everyone else as it should be. The fact that an American product cost more as a percentate of the average income in Vietnam is obvious, but that's not related to my point. NCU is simplying saying that, because it sounds plausable, when what they are doing is picking up a few extra bucks on the bottom line. It's about business. There is no altruism or concern that NCU provide degrees to underserved populations. They run a for profit corporation - period. Just my opinion.

The only element about job loss that I intended to address relates to the lack of geographical constraints on folks teaching online and how this could hurt adjunct online teachers in the US. That's it. Anyone who flys across the world because they got an RA DL degree is in for a shock anyway.

 

Re: Re: NCU HUT

[/B][/QUOTE]

Good points. I've worked with Indians, Chinese, and Pakistanis also - hey they are smart and work hard. I'm in professional services, but not in IT. I have no idea how the ultimate shakeout of online schooling will fair in the global arena. It's not like I can buy 250 PhDs in Pakistan and sell them in Oklahoma and keep the difference - there's no arbitrage opportunity in the product. However the labor is highly transferable, so what to universities charge. Heck, I don't know. I do know that if NCU and others sell for less abroad, we as Americans must pay top dollar in a fashion that subsidizes sales abroad. This is the pharmacutical argument. I also think some folks have a hard time seporating social and equit issues from private sector rent seeking behavior, so it's cloudy as to what US "public" universities should be charging for online degrees to folks abroad in less rich economies. It's a difficult issue.

 

Tuition considerations

When one considers that the per capita income of many foreign countries is a fraction of ours, then it becomes fully understandable why some universities (or any other business) would lower the cost for the product. A part of it is humanatarian and another part encourages global commerce. If a per capita income is a couple of hundred dollars a year, then charging $7,500 for an MBA is still extraordinarily high (to them) and is out-of-reach except for the opulantly rich (in that country).

If I own a company or a school and if I want to charge less tuition to students in developing countries, then that's my business. If you don't like it, then you can start your own business.

 

Re: Tuition considerations

So, you don't mind paying an extra 10K in tuition to a school so another can go to school? That's nice of you.

What about poor Americans wanting to attend NCU? They might want to get a better education, too, and advance on up to whatever. Do you think you could get NCU to start cutting off 10K per MBA for the poor American? Do you think they would listen? I guarantee poor Americans are not getting a 10K federal grant to go to NCU. Is NCU looking at the personal income of an applicant to direct tuition one way or another? Nope. They just point an American to a loan program where they can borrow the full amount.

I saw that Troy State had a deal with the National University in Vietnam. They say there that you pay the tuition but that limited scholarships are available.

 

Re: Re: Re: NCU HUT

That's obviously his choice. I sure hope he makes more now - $900 in Moscow is not much nowadays.

Well duh! OF COURSE they just are making extra buck. Explain me one thing though. Are you saying that you OPPOSE an AMERICAN CORPORATION making extra profit overseas? Why, God, why???
There's nothing "unfair" about their discount scheme. Nothing more unfair, anyways, then underlying income difference. Life is not perfectly fair in general.

Online adjuncts are not paid all that much anyways. I can't imagine an online school, just out of the blue, would start hiring third-world instructors. Imagine all the bad press this move would generate! Check out UoP's job ads - they actually require their instructors to have work authorization in USA.

Agreed. I'd bet most people who get an "american degree" in developing country are trying to get a good position at home - maybe in the local office of the multinational. My PhD in computer science (when and if I get it) is virtually worthless back in Ukraine, but I bet my wife's soon-to-be BS in Accounting from Excelsior would be quite valuable - if she could also get a CPA. It's kind of a good sign for Vietnam that those things have demand - and that RA matters.