Kennedy-Western Equals Degree Mill

I understand that K-W seems to usually require 5 classes and a paper for any of the degrees (Bachelor, Master, or Ph.D.) The paper must be longer for the graduate degrees. However, it has been reported by some K-W students that K-W may require as many as 9 classes. What has also been said by multiple K-W students is that the classes are supposed to be classes from the last year of the degree. They are also patterned after 3 hour/credit type classes.

I tried to get the catalog but my request was rejected due to living in California. I've gotten email from some persons that received the catalog and it doesn't seem to have a lot more than what is on the web site. As mentioned in this thread, the entrance requirement is five years work experience and one of
A) AA
B) 60 college credits
C) examination

I don't believe they can have any legit evaluation of work experience because they don't relate it to courses and the output from the process is 5-9 classes even though the inputs can run a huge spectrum of over one hundred credits to zero credits. I would guess that 5-9 also depends heavily on how many classes they have actually developed for the requested degree.

As I tried to define the term degree mill at the beginning of the thread, it simply means to me a substandard degree.

 

Sorry, my statement was unclear. What I meant to say was that real schools publish their graduation requirements and they are the same requirements for all graduates. (Admittedly at the graduate level there's more flexibility here but I'm focusing primarily on undergraduate.) K-W does not publish their graduation requirements. K-W tailors the graduation requirements to each applicant. Apparently in RJT's case, they gave him his graduation requirements before they had seen his official transcripts. This is another indication that the K-W student graduation requirements have much more to do with their marketing department than anything to do with academic requirements.

 

Graduating ...

Hello All:

I just wanted to state that I finally completed my last course and project requirements for my degree at K-W U and I am looking forward to graduating. The final paper was more difficult than any project I've encountered at an RA school. My co-workers have congratulated me, and my employer has approved reimbursement. I never for one moment doubt my decision to go with K-W.

Just as an FYI, I’ve never received one instance of people inferring that K-W is anything less than a respected school. This is much different than my co-worker who is attending the University of Phoenix; he is concerned that people perceive this school as the Kmart of RA schools. I recognize the limitations of a State Licensed school, but I do not plan on teaching. I am a business executive, and my K-W degree will assist in making more effective decisions, as well as, garnering respect.

Thanks,

RJT

 

Re: Graduating ...

Not a bad analogy, though Walmart would be better since Apollo Group is doing very well.

 

Actually

UoP's founder and dean is a class act whack job who
takes portions of the schools profits and funds
cloning research overseas, mostly in France.

The last time I checked the lab prospects of human cloning
was banned in America, as it should.

Reading an article in the English Financial Journal during a flight
to Dallas I read where this individual ( cannot for the life of me remember his name), is a billionare in Arizona who pad's all the coffers that need their palm buttered.

UoP would not be one of my suggestions.
Before I transferred to Illinois I lived outside
Philadelphia on the NJ side of the river.
UoP opened up a campus near Philly and last I heard the
place was under investigation by the Dept of Ed in Pa.
For reason I know not.

Again, you have read my thoughts on the whole
accredidation process, but real world is what it is.

Enjoy

 

Good for you, RJT.

Congratulations on your success, degree, and stuff.

BR,
Bill

 

Re: Graduating ...

I've seen this from almost every single unaccredited degree seeker. No matter what RA school they said they attended, and no matter how notorious a degree mill they were enrolled in, the unaccredited work is always much harder than the RA school's work. "My semester paper at DegreeMill University was MUCH harder than any paper I did at Harvard".....

The funny thing is, those who have done the opposite (started at unaccredited schools, then realized they screwed up and went RA), and there are quite a few here, say just the opposite.

Apparently you haven't been reading this board, just posting messages and leaving.

Your co-worker is apparently concerned with academic quality. You're not. Is that something to be proud of?

Best of luck, Kevin.


Bruce

 

RJT says "I’ve never received one instance of people inferring that K-W is anything less than a respected school."

Clearly he has not received America's leading higher education publication, The Chronicle of Higher Education (www.chronicle.com).

Here, for instance (in part), is what they wrote last April 12:

"Many educators hold Kennedy-Western in low regard, troubled by the institution's secrecy and slick marketing, decision to avoid oversight by accrediting agencies, awarding of academic credit for work experience, and attempted moves to different states. The institution is barred from enrolling California residents, because it lacks a license from the state agency that certifies private colleges, and people can be criminally prosecuted in Oregon if they attempt to use a Kennedy-Western degree to apply for a job. The Idaho State Board of Education rejected the university's effort, in 1998, to renew its license to operate there because it lacked accreditation. Kennedy-Western then turned its attention to Wyoming."

Last year, The Chronicle actually sent a reporter to Wyoming to investigate Kennedy-Western. In the March 23, 2001 edition, she wrote, in part:

"Cheyenne is...home to Kennedy-Western and American Global Universities, which have small offices within a block of each other in the city's sleepy downtown. An unannounced visit to Kennedy-Western reveals a quiet and stark basement office. No one is seated at the front desk to greet visitors. After several minutes Stephanie Baty, whose business card reads "Wyoming Admissions/Coordinator of Alumni and Corporate Development," appears in the foyer. She says she is not authorized to answer reporters' questions, and says the office is primarily used for data entry. Another person works there with her, and, she says, a third person will be joining the staff shortly..."

"...the university is barred from enrolling California students because it is not licensed by the California Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education. Kennedy-Western also stopped recruiting Oregon residents through the mail after it was contacted by Drew A. Lianopoulos, an Oregon assistant attorney general. In a December letter, he said the university misleads Oregonians into believing that a Kennedy-Western degree is recognized in Oregon, which it is not..."

"The university's Web site...has a picture of Kennedy-Western's Wyoming private-school license and a newsletter trumpeting, among other things, a "faculty update" about a professor with a Ph.D. from Columbia Pacific University. Last month, a judge in Marin County Superior Court, in California, ordered Columbia Pacific to cease operations in California because it had been operating without state approval."

And so it goes.

 

RESPNSE

John:

Thanks for the article. However, I hold the article in low reagrd because they failed to view anything but negatives bout the school. I infact felt all my courses were as challanging as with the RA schools I've attended, and infact all the couses were oversited by RA professors, who worked for K-W parttime.

I also had to complete a 100+ page paper, which I found to difficult and challanging. K-W has strict evaluative processes, and they are subject to regulation by the WY DoE.

Is K-W traditional? No, they are unique, as they do award some credit for life experiences. However, all the cousework, which must be had, is just as rigorious as an RA school. Does K-W just grant degrees? No they have strict policies which must be adhered to.

Having completed 103 RA credits, I was not looking for a traditonal program, K-W afforded this. However, do I feel I've had to work hard to get to where I am? Absoultely.

Governor's Western also offers a uniqe format, however, why are they advocted? In my opinion, because they are RA and there is a discrimation on this board against legal SL schools.

In summary, K-W makes you work hard for your degree, under the supervison of RA insructors. I would not want to attend a school that afforded anything less, nor would I ever attend a mill. K-W is definitly not a mill.

John, please provide an example of where someone was successfully prosecuted for using a SL Degree not on OR's approved list? I feel the law is unconsitutional.

Regards,

RJT

 

Re: RESPNSE

Wyoming does nothing but license schools, there is no meaningful oversight. That's the reason K-W moved there from Idaho, after they moved there from California. It's a shell game to avoid academic oversight.

Can you name one legitimately accredited school that has moved out-of-state once, never mind twice?


Bruce

 

Re: Re: RESPNSE

If memory serves me right.... University of Phoenix started out at the St. Mary's in California campus and moved to Phoenix, Arizona. I don't have Spurling's book "Rebel With a Cause" at hand.

Regards,

Dick

 

Re: Re: Re: RESPNSE

Bear's Guide doesn't mention this. Neither does the very short history of UoP on their website. However, even if it were true, they moved the whole organization to Phoenix. Unlike K-W where they moved only thier address to avoid fraud enforcement.

Dr. Suhar, I have respect for your level headed and thoughtful posts. Perhaps you can help me understand RJT's point here. He seems to say that K-W ASSUMES that the Bachelor degree student is in their last year at K-W. How can it be argued that a K-W Bachelor degree is valid when it appears that K-W does not ASSURE that the Bachelor degree student is in their last year at K-W? It would appear to me that this is the perfect example of a typical degree mill trick?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: RESPNSE

The history is covered in depth in Spurling's book and I no longer have a copy. He also cited some really ugly experiences with the Regional Accreditors over his "new" adult learner model. Eventually North Central accepted his ideas. As a side note, whenever the University of Phoenix considers opening a branch campus they solicit visits from the educational authorities in the state in their quest for approval to operate. They do not set up shop only to be told to cease operations.

I can not offer any insight into RJT point. I cannot speak to the exact evaluation process KWU uses for a BS. I can only speak to the Doctoral level since I have experience with it and speculate about the rest.

My experiences indicate that the bottom line is the employer acceptance. If the employer want to provide an extention to their corporate training facilities, then schools like KW could be an acceptable alternative. Putting myself in the shoes of an employer, I would favor a degree with "limited utility." It would give me an opprtunity to upgrade the skills of some valuable employees and at the same time not invest heavily in human resources that may leave and work for somebody else. The availablity of good experienced technical talent in the job market
is tough.

For instance, my current employer supports the concept of going to school to take all the courses for the PhD ABD status but the candidate needs Vice President level sign off for the year residency requirment for the dissertation work. From the needs of the business, pure and simple, they don't need doctorates in engineering. They want doctorates in Life Sciences. So I can take all the courses I want to develop myslf, but I sure can't look for any promotion since my job path does not require a doctorate. The organization wins big time in taking advantage of the employee who buys into life long learning. I have worked in Fortune 500 companies as well as small manufacturing companies. My experiences has shown the same old story with a different chapter syndrome. So yes, it makes perfect sense to me that a degree from an unaccredited school would be accepted by an employer who values his current employees.

Degree mill trick ??? I am not convinced.

Regards,

Dick

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESPNSE

Perhaps you can help out in another way? I'm having trouble getting information on K-W in part because I live in K-W's home state and they won't send information to me. I also am concluding that the information is just plain not available. I would like to look at the entrance requirements and the graduation requirements for K-W. For example, I've been told that in the catalog sent out that the Bachelor degree entrance requirement to K-W is 5 years work experience and one of the following.
1) AA degree
2) 60 college semester credits
3) examination

I submit that without more information we can only conclude that that the Bachelor degrees are far below standard. There does not appear to be any assurance by K-W that their graduates have completed or obtained the knowledge for the first 3 years of college. There seems to be no rigorous evaluation of the 5 years of work experience which I assume is supposed to cover the third year of college. There seems to be no explanation as to what if anything is involved in even assuring how applicable the first two years of college are to the desired Bachelor degree. As to the examination, without any information I speculate that it is nothing more than the K-W recruiter's personal opinion formed after talking to the candidate.

What are the entrance and graduation requirements for K-W graduate degrees?

So, if you know of any information available that better defines entrance requirements and graduation requirements then it would go a long way making K-W look like a real academic school.

Regarding the degree mill trick comment, I've noticed that a common theme with degree mills is the lax method of converting work/life experience into college credit. It appears to me that the way that K-W handles work experience conversion into credits places them squarely into the degree mill camp as does their lack of published graduation requirements. The reason I call it a trick is that it gives the illusion to the prospective student that she/he is much closer to graduating than he might otherwise be. This allows the degree mill to appear to be academically rigorous when in fact they are being lax and are just tricking the prospect. The beauty of it from the fraud perspective is that the prospect wants to believe the lie which is the key to any fraud.

 

Re: RESPNSE

 

Re: Re: RESPNSE

You call it a shell game to avoid academic oversight. I think that it is more of a shell game to avoid being closed down for running a school that doesn't meet required academic standards, or to put it even more bluntly, to avoid fraud enforcement.

I thought I recall some posts where some legitimate schools moved from one region to another to be under a region that was more accepting of distance learning. There's also the thread on AMU that indicates that they may be the first accredited school that has done this.

 

Bill, regarding UOP's move from California to Arizona: "Bear's Guide doesn't mention this."

John: It used to, in some detail, including the fact that the major association of Arizona educators petitioned North Central not to give candidacy to what they called a diploma mill. Note: they got candidacy on the day they opened in Arizona.

I got one of the most heavyweight "cease and desist" letters ever from UOP's Arizona law firm, 16,000 names on the engraved letterhead, demanding that all known copies of Bears' Guide be immediately destroyed, and that I never print this (true) information again.

I chose not to destroy books, but I also chose to stop reporting this information, which had become less relevant anyway. I've never had any academic concerns about UOP, even if that episode was mightily annoying.

 

Very interesting, it would appear that UoP was very embarrassed by this true information. The reason must be that it is most frequently a technique used by degree mills like K-W to avoid prosecution for fraud.

Gateway computer moved from South Dakota (or was it Kansas?) to sunny San Diego. But they actually moved people rather than just getting a new mailbox so I don't think they were trying to avoid fraud enforcement. As an alternative example, OJ Simpson apparently moved to Florida to make it harder to collect some kind of judgement for murder or something. So I guess there are both honest and dishonest reasons to move to a new state? UoP had an honest (but embarrassing anyway?) reason and K-W had apparently dishonest reasons.

BTW, let me know if I need to destroy any of my earlier copies of Bear's Guide in order to comply with heavyweight cease and desist orders.

Thanks for the interesting information

 

Sperling discusses the move in detail in his book. I wonder if the UOP lawyers sent him a "cease and desist" letter?

 

Graduate Program

I can't speak to the MS but here are the Ph.D general requirements:

Entrance:
1. Minimum of 5 years related occupational experience related to the progam under application.

AND

2. A Masters degree degree preferrably in the same field as the doctoral program. (My sidenote: Some programs such as Engineering Management are interdisciplinary.)

Graduation: total of 63 semester hours.

Typically these hours are split among:
1. Dissertation 12 hrs (Mandatory)
2. Transfer credit from student's MS Transcripts 30-36 hrs
3. KW coursework 12-15 hours
4. Balance - "Life Experience" on your job and or documented seminar speaking engagements.

Please note: Graduation requirements are not published in their catalog. This is what typically takes place from my experence and conversations with other students. It would be nice if they did publish what they appear to do.

It is interesting to note that from KW's own statistics, up to mid 1999 the overall graduation rate stands around 17%. DL does take a special student. They are extremely active in providing student encouragement to complete programs. They put a clock on the students which starts with the letter of acceptance. The student has 18 months to complete their program without penality. Nobody graduates in less than 12 months. After 18 months one 6 month extention can be granted without financial penality. After the 24 month mark, if the student wishes to continue a monthly fee is assessed with any other 6 month increment extentions. This move cleaned up those potential student who may be hanging around for several years. Older students were exempt.

For the dissertation requirement, it is 150 TEXT pages. All the front material Cover sheet, any dedication, TOC. and abstact as well as the back material (appendicees) does not count to the 150 pages. This same format requirement goes for RJT Masters paper (100 pages) and any BS final paper (75 pages).

A offer is made to execute a copyright application. I took this opton with my work since I will potentially use the work in my consulting business.

KWU sure has the ability to incite heated emotions. I've notice those people who post in the forums display love/hate relationship. You can put me in the camp of one of those "thousands of satisfied customers". They gave me what I was expecting. Do I absolutely love the school... No. Do I hate the school... No. I am just satisfied. Do I get upset with the Anti-KW crowd. No. We are all entitled to our view points. There are lots of schools out there I don't like either.

Regards,

Dick