Kennedy-Western Equals Degree Mill

Re: Re: Re: Twisting at the End of a Rope

Here's some more corroborating evidence. e.g., We're witness to the final twitching at the end of his rope for another victim.

"hello I am trying to retake my MGT400 Critical thinking and Decision making test. I failed the first time. I have asked for tutorial assistance only to have the professor refused to walk through these algebra formulas with me because I "wouldn't learn anything" if he did. I have tried to make sense of them but the book presents them horribly and I have NO CLUE as to where the numbers come from or why. Is there anyone out there that has taken the course or that can help me figure EMV,EVPI, etc or just has a good grasp of algebra work problems????? please email me at [email protected]"


http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001179.html

 

K-W Forum Old Post

There's an amusing old thread over at the K-W forum about the degrees being illegal in Oregon.

http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000015.html

One post that caused me pause though is that our own dear Dr. Suhar apparently posted a bald faced falsehood!

"My B.Eng and M.Eng from Regionally accreditied universities are illegal in Oregon as well. So are all the Ivy League University degrees. Go check it out for yourself if you plan on working in Oregon."

Have I missed something here, Dr. Suhar?

 

Re: K-W Forum Old Post

Yes you are missing some thing..... A time stamp, change in Oregon's postion and a private phone conversation. What I said at that time was indeed correct.

So now you accuse me of posting a "bald face falsehood". I am glad I was not accused of posting one with hair.... But then you did say "apparent". I suppose you would have everyone believe that I am an apparent bald face liar instead of a real one? Guilt by association... nice. I just love those caveats. Please check the other 300 postings in the Pub and let me know what other "Apparent Bald Faced Falsehoods" I have spread.

Regards,

Dick

 

Hi Dick

I believe Bill was commenting on what you wrote and not on you. Your posts on this forum have been straight forward and I am sure helpful to many people.

Even after your last post, I fail to understand what you meant by your 2 RA and all Ivy league degrees being illegal in Oregon? You surely know this was never true, correct?

Thanks for helping me to understand what you meant.

 

Dick,

Out of curiousity, why was your BEng and MEng illegal for use in Oregon at the time of that post (2001)? Was it an ABET accreditation issue? Why were Ivy leagues banned? Is Oregon some disgruntled state in regards to education?


So, you unaccredited degree holders and RA degree crusaders gonna meet somewhere and duke it out yet or what? I think the RA guys would win because alot of the degree programs include physical wellness course requirements. What you guys think?

Best Regards,

Bill Ready

 

Re: Re: K-W Forum Old Post

Dick, you surprise me. I never would have guessed that you would try to claim that what you posted was true. Regarding bald face at least to me, it simply means obvious; bare; unmasked, as in the statements in the post are obviously untrue and have been "exposed". At least I thought they were obviously untrue?!!!

BTW I did notice the date. That's why I referred to it as "an amusing old thread". Now it has been reincarnated in part here as an amusing new thread.

I have already concluded that your posts can be counted on to be truthful, forthright and informative. I thought I'd said that before? It would take much more than one post to get me to change my mind.

I would be very interested in understanding how Oregon's new law could possibly be interpretted to mean that RA degrees would be illegal and even Ivy League degrees illegal in Oregon? I admit that I'm currently stunned and don't know what to think about this claim.

Regarding the other 300 postings in the Pub, I won't make any promises but I will poke around a bit more, thanks.

Have fun,
Bill

 

Re: K-W Forum Old Post

What you do not see in the Pub are postings that go back into the archives prior to the implementation of the current software you now see on the Pub. That is what the comments about dredging up history were about.

As far as the reference to the Ivy League and such, It goes back to when ODU first posted the site. The ODA web site now has a paragraph stating the use of RA accredited credentials. A few years ago, I did not recall that statement being on the page. I noticed a listing of RA schools in the approved school listing page. It really perked my curosity to see Stanford University listed along with some other prominent West coast schools, What I noticed missing was schools East of the Missippi, hence the Ivy League comment.

The phone call I made reference to was to the office in Oregon asking if my degrees are legal in Oregon. The reply I received was no. Seems my alama maters were not on the approved list. It was suggested that I contact my school administrations and request they submit to the Oregon review process. To this day I still see the University of Phoenix listed as an approved school but the other RA institutions seem to have dissappeared.

There is a loop hole that exists for Engineering School Graduates that plan to set up shop in Oregon. Regardless of accredidation, if the engineer has a valid license, s/he can apply for an Oregon license via Comity and use that credential to practice in Oregon.

So technically a California Coast , Kennedy-Western or any other non-RA graduate can practice in Oregon. Business and other program graduates of these institutions of course cannot use their degrees. There are states that grandfather over engineers wiith 20 years experience to qualify for licensure. It is difficult but not impossible for a non-RA engineer graduate to attain registration. One of my colleagues in another company I worked with, who retired, actually was granted a PE in Control Systems from the state of California upon submittal of a reccommendation from 5 registered PEs attesting to his 20 years experience and application fee. All this with no degree. California now uses the standardized Controls System Engineering exams.

So there you have the story behind the apparent bald face lie.

And by the way, I am a liar and I admit it. I have made serious attempts to contol this practice and I feel I have been successful since my childhood and adolescent days. I am surre the rest of humanity is in the same boat with me but I can't speak for them.

Regards,

Dick

 

Re: Re: K-W Forum Old Post

It was a rather minor infraction, in my opinion. You have demonstrated how successfully you've controlled the normal human tendencies to want to "twist reality" to fit your own desires.

I'll now try to put the whole thing into my context. Another reason I consider K-W students to be victims is that K-W, like all degree mills, play on this normal human tendency. The degree mill's ace-up-the-sleeve in this context is the credit for life experience con. This is where they chop off huge percentages of unpublished graduation requirements based on a bogus evaluation of life experience. Real schools have the graduation requirements listed and life experience may be turned into credits by testing or portfolio that ensure per class that the required material for that class has been learned. Add to this main con the natural desire for a person to have a good image and the fact that one's degrees are part of a person's general image and respect which is significantly affected by the reputation of the alma mater, the end result is that the victim will frequently vigorously defend the very degree mill that has tricked them. Around here this state is often referred to as "being in a state of denial". This is the more important "state license" used by degree mills. (This last sentence is a joke in honor of RJT.)

It appears to me that it's likely that the "Ivy League degrees being illegal in Oregon" statement is a testimony to how powerful this state of denial can be because even Dr. Suhar is vulnerable.

As a side note, to me this life experience con seems to be a good indication as to what is a degree mill as opposed to an unaccredited school. For example using this definition, CCU is not a degree mill but K-W would be a degree mill.

 

The worth of Life Experience

Bill;

Some how I feel cheated in the life experience category compared to the KW BS applicant. Basically 30 years of engineering experience including evaluation of doctoral level work got distilled into 6 semester hours of credit. From your posts, it seems like I should have received a whole lot more. I guess my "life" wasn't as important as a BS level applicant


You certainly do touch upon an interesting issue. However I still agree with Dr. Bear's post and I am not ready to call KWU a degree mill. This is aside from the fact I graduated their process. I also feel CCU has merit despite multiple choice exams. Having never taken a CCU exam, I believe a professional educator could make up some quite difficult tests for their coursework. My students typically do much worse on Standardized Statistics multiple choice exams than if I give them straight problems. However they still typically think they can do better with MC.

I still believe that the choice of a school regardless of accredidation boils down to a complex set of individual choices and accredidation typically drops toward the bottom if it makes the list at all. Ergo..... time bombs can be effectively created.

Since we have no foreknowledge of the future, we usually make decisions based upon the near future vs the long term. After I left the Navy I thought I would be living in Independence, Ohio working as a metallurgist for the rest of my life. I never made it to Independence and I got my program dropped by the university in my senior year due to poor enrollemnt. Of course the demand for Ferrous Metallurgists has gone the way of the dinosaur for the most part. So getting my degree from any program would have led me to doom as far as the steel industry in Northeasten Ohio went.

Oh yes... I am having fun despite it all

Regards,

Dick

 

Re: The worth of Life Experience

Assuming this comment means you received 6 s.h. of doctoral-level credit for life experience, I'd say you got 6 s.h. more than should be expected.

Awarding life/work experience for graduate-level credit is a clear sign that a school is a degree mill. Not that I'm saying K-WU is a degree mill, of course.

 

Weasel Words

Oh please Rich... can you get more definitive than that set of statements??? Almost like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" Not that I am saying ??? Sure has the teflon ring of legalese weasel words designed to preclude a law suit. Yes I know your stance and respect it although I do know you have no respect for me. No I am not going to sue anybody over any stance they take on KW

BTW... Bill ... Venerable (?) am I. Last time I recall usage of that term, I was in philosophy studing The Venerable Bede's works. You make me feel so old but distinguished although I am not even close to his status

Regards,

Dick

 

Answer Posted

As you will note the response to your question was made in response to the same issue Bill requested.

What it all probably boiled down to was lack of good two way communication between myself and his office when the ODA site started up. A wise man once said S...t happens. Yes I can now feel free to move to Oregon and use my RA credentials. I have no bone to pick with the Oregon Degree Authorization Office. I believe Dr. Cateris has done a fine job with his given mandate.

If I have caused any of the readers distress for my old posting I appologize. I truely believe it was an accurate statement given the information I investigated at the time. You will note that I recommended people check it out for themselves as well. Our belief in the flatness of the world is laughable as well.

Regards,

Dick

 

Re: Weasel Words

Dick:

I've been doing this for 25 years, even before KW-U came into existence. I'm very serious when I say that I'm not calling them a degree mill, yet so much of their history and so many of their business practices are similar to degree mills. I wasn't being dodgy. I don't happen to think KW-U is a degree mill. Perhaps you should take a bit more stock in someone before rushing to judgment. Or better yet, stick to the issues and not the poster. I don't recall making even one statement about you, even though I loathe the school in question--the one to which you're connected. They are two entirely different matters. Perhaps you could see yourself clear to keep them separate as well.

 

Re: The worth of Life Experience

Some how I feel cheated in the life experience category compared to the KW BS applicant. Basically 30 years of engineering experience including evaluation of doctoral level work got distilled into 6 semester hours of credit. From your posts, it seems like I should have received a whole lot more. I guess my "life" wasn't as important as a BS level applicant


Well ANY granting of life experience for a PhD is indicative of a degree mill, IMHO.

You certainly do touch upon an interesting issue. However I still agree with Dr. Bear's post and I am not ready to call KWU a degree mill. This is aside from the fact I graduated their process. I also feel CCU has merit despite multiple choice exams. Having never taken a CCU exam, I believe a professional educator could make up some quite difficult tests for their coursework. My students typically do much worse on Standardized Statistics multiple choice exams than if I give them straight problems. However they still typically think they can do better with MC.

My observations would seem to indicate that Dr. Bear uses degree mill to describe particular schools only when both of the following are true.
1. apparently being run illegally and
2. He has zero liability. (e.g., convicted of fraud in court or another authority has already called them a degree mill)
That is fine and reasonable especially considering the number of times that degree mill operators have tried to sue him. (All suits were absolutely unsuccessful at winning even a dollar.)

From my point of view, degree mill more typically means an apparently substandard school. I did notice that on the K-W forum, degree mill typically means a place that hands out degrees for no work.

I still believe that the choice of a school regardless of accredidation boils down to a complex set of individual choices and accredidation typically drops toward the bottom if it makes the list at all. Ergo..... time bombs can be effectively created.

Unfortunately this is often true.

Since we have no foreknowledge of the future, we usually make decisions based upon the near future vs the long term. After I left the Navy I thought I would be living in Independence, Ohio working as a metallurgist for the rest of my life. I never made it to Independence and I got my program dropped by the university in my senior year due to poor enrollemnt. Of course the demand for Ferrous Metallurgists has gone the way of the dinosaur for the most part. So getting my degree from any program would have led me to doom as far as the steel industry in Northeasten Ohio went.

Oh yes... I am having fun despite it all


I am pleased that you're having fun. I too am having fun.

 

I posted the following in another thread on this forum. However, I wanted to save it in this thread which I consider a historical tribute to Kennedy-Western.

RJT, here's the same dose of reality but from another source. You've been told before that K-W is a degree mill that was chased from the state of CA. Here's what the CA State Legislature says about that.

"California has an enviable reputation for the quality of its regionally accredited public and independent colleges and universities. That reputation for quality does not extend to the private, non-accredited sector, a fact that led to enactment of the Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education Act in 1989. One of the explicit goals of that legislation was to rid California of the unwanted title of “Diploma Mill Capital” of the country. Substantial progress was made in establishing the credibility of this sector under the Council for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education, established by the Act as the oversight agency."

quote from http://www.sen.ca.gov/masterplan/02...TMASTERPLAN.PDF

K-W was chased out of CA and went to Idaho and then was chased out of there to Wyoming. (I think an aborted move to Hawaii may also be in there but Hawaii strengthed their own degree mill law when K-W was preparing to move.) Why has K-W bounced around like a pin ball? Because they are a degree mill that is not willing to meet minimum educational standards that those state legislatures have tried to impose. I believe that eventually Wyoming and Montana will clean up their own act and K-W will be driven off-shore or go out of business.

The view of the future is clearest seen using the focus of the past.
Huffman 2002,

 

Wyoming, K-WU's alleged home, falls under the jurisdiction of the North Central Association. NCA has garnered the reputation of being the most open-to-DL of the RA's.

SCUPS couldn't get anywhere with WASC, so they opened another school across the border and became a candidate with NCA. International Graduate School was a candidate with NCA until it folded in 1987. Union Institute and University had the longest spell on record as a candidate with the very understanding NCA. Jones International became the first truly online school to become regionally accredited by....NCA. When Walden University couldn't make headway with SACS, it opened an office in Minneapolis under the jurisdiction of NCA, which accredited Walden. When The Graduate School of America set up a serious run at becoming an accredited DL school, they set up in Minneapolis as well. They're now the very much accredited Capella University. When American Military University (or, now, the dreadfully named American Public University System) decided it couldn't succeed with SACS, it announced the opening of an office accross the boarder in West Virginia, under the jurisdiction of SACS.

My point? If Kennedy-Western University was anything but a crummy, unaccreditable operation, it would have become accredited in the 13 or so years since "moving" out from under WASC's jurisdiction. Other schools have done it. But K-WU's "move" wasn't to find a better opportunity for accreditation. It was to move in the opposite direction, re-establishing the non-regulated conditions it enjoyed under California's Authorized category, eliminated in 1989. And I say, without a bit of hesitation, that if the other degree mill havens in the U.S. were to truly close ranks, K-WU would move off-shore in a New York (or would that be a St. Kitts?) minute. Ba da bing.

 

It could be that K-W has done the pin ball thing to increase its potential student base. Or perhaps K-W's campus is in the back of a pick-up truck, therefore, it is constantly on the move.

 

Russell, you've crushed me. I was so proud of the quotable statement "The view of the future is clearest seen using the focus of the past." That I even had to date and sign my name. (Getting the black marker off the screen was a real pain by the way.) Now you instead quote my pin ball sentence. Excuse me while I go cry.

 

Did you try Wite-Out®?

 

This course would also be indicated by the famous quote.
"The view of the future is clearest seen using the focus of the past."
Huffman 2002, Ba da bang