Kennedy-Western Equals Degree Mill

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Bill Huffman, Jun 30, 2002.

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  1. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    After RJT posted here on DegreeInfo as an apparent shill for K-W I became slightly more interested in the degree mill known as Kennedy-Western University. This place charges thousands of dollars for practically worthless degrees. It apparently makes the "student" work fairly hard for 5 or so classes and if they pass gives them their degree.

    K-W doesn't publish what the graduation requirements are. I know of one example where one fellow without even a Bachelor degree was negotiating with K-W to get into the PhD program. To my knowledge he never completed the evaluation material so never got "accepted" but they apparently were entertaining the possibility of letting him bypass the Bachelor and the Master degree.

    Their forum has had some amusing threads lately.

    People finding out their degrees are worthless
    "ACCREDIDATION"
    http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001133.html

    "Federal Employment"
    http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001129.html

    "courses"
    http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001110.html


    Here's a fun one on graduation ceremonies
    http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001123.html

    Then there's the thread that indicates that just because a company has paid for K-W classes they think that the company will accept the K-W degrees as real degrees.
    http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001091.html


    I shouldn't be surprised anymore but I can't help being flabbergasted that these people think that they have earned a real degree by taking 5 classes from a degree mill. Then when they find out that their degree isn't accepted anywhere they get insulted and are mad at the potential employer or school instead of being upset at K-W. Of course it is entirely possible that some of the students might get upset at K-W but those posts probably get deleted quickly.
     
  2. I had to laugh when I read that thread.

    If a person with a K-W degree-- and no other degree at the level in question-- applys for and is appointed to a federal job which requires that degree, then they've slipped in "under the radar" in an incredible stroke of luck. Alternatively, there was a new personnel specialist screening 171s that day.

    And the last thing I'd do, in their shoes, is advertise the mistake. :rolleyes:
     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Kennedy-Western Equals Degree Mill

    It could be chaulked up to me being overly suspicious but I guess that a couple of the posters on the Pub forum are really shills working for K-W. I suspect that the one there that claims to be a future manager in a human resources department might be the same shill as our very own RJT (See HRM2BE in thread http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001119.html).

    Here's a new thread started by a K-W student that believes that talking about how unaccepted/invalid K-W degrees are will magically make it so.
    http://vsu.kw.edu/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001134.html
     
  4. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Too busy to waste my time

    Bill and Dennis:

    While I appreciate the flattery, it wasn't me. ... Too busy completing my last couse and writing my 100 page plus thesis to waste on justifying a school which already has wide business acceptance.

    Thanks!
    :D
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Too busy to waste my time

    You're very welcome.

    BTW I can't help but note that you continue to make sweeping statements of endorsement for K-W without providing any back up for the claims. I would be interested in learning about all these businesses that are looking for graduates that managed to complete 5-7 courses (of course, I mustn't forget the 100 page "thesis") to get their Bachelor degree. Do you really think that employers will be impressed by resumes that list all 5 classes they took to earn their degree?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2002
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Too busy to waste my time

    Umm, to my knowledge, this has never been established. Not that it isn't reasonable. After all, K-W has sold a lot of degrees. Tens of thousands of customers can't all be unhappy! But getting away with something and having it recognized and accepted are two entirely different things.

    The only sources of information we might have regarding the acceptability of K-W degrees are a study conducted by John Bear, and K-W themselves. John surveyed admissions officials at accredited schools, who roundly rejected state-approved or -licensed schools. Flat out rejected. And K-W is hardly a credible source. They list some businesses in their literature, but do not discuss exactly how they developed the list, what criteria they used for placing a company on the list, information about the companies that would allow an outside observer to replicate the findings, etc. In other words, it's advertising.

    Legal and legitimate are entirely different concepts. K-W is mostly the first, and not at all the second.
     
  7. Re: Too busy to waste my time

    Never said it was. But I don't think it was intended as flattery, anyway.
     
  8. RJT

    RJT New Member

    KWU assumes someone has already completed 60 credits, or an AA Degree, plus 5 plus years work experience - prior to admitance.
     
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    My understanding is that the first part of your statement is false. I've been told that there is NO requirement that an AA or 60 credits in the transcript to be accepted. I understand that there's a third choice that contains wording to the effect that an examination may be sufficient. Since there's no definition of what this examination is, it seems safe to assume that it means that after examining the method of payment, K-W rules that the student has obviously passed the examination.

    Like you would expect from a degree mill, there is no rigorous evaluation done on what courses are earned by the work experience evaluation.

    Like you would expect from a degree mill, there is no published graduation requirements for K-W. K-W appears that it is a business where you simply pay the money, pass 5-7 classes, write a paper, and get your degree. The standard for a Bachelor degree in the USA is 120 semester hours. K-W apparently makes no attempt to adhere to this standard. My gosh, RJT, I understand that K-W doesn't even bother offerring the classes that would make up the bulk of those 120 semester hours. Unless an AA was a hard requirement, K-W is just putting on a show by even listing it as an entrance requirement.
    i.e.
    a) AA degree
    b) 60 units
    c) examination

    You have to look at the minimum requirement. That is the only REQUIREMENT of significance. The first two are for show. Do you want me to post the definition of requirement?
     
  10. George Brown

    George Brown Active Member

    Umm, you better clarify this. Do they 'assume' this pre-requisite, or is it verified by normal RPL/RCC means?

    Cheers,

    George
     
  11. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    There would be more of an argument that K-W degrees weren't grossly substandard if there was a hard requirement of an AA. That would solve the problem of someone taking 60 credits of crafts classes or whatever. However, there would still be the problem that K-W doesn't use a rigorous evaluation process for translating work experience into specific course credits. It appears to me that the K-W wants their customers to think that the work experience is supposed to somehow cover the third year of college then the student takes enough K-W classes to cover a little over half of the fourth year and the paper covers the remainder of the fourth year.
     
  12. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    I think RJT said that perfectly. They ASSUME that you've done this and done that. They could care less if actually have. Either way they are going to require you take 5-7 classes and that you pay your tuition bill. If you have no real experience or college courses they might add a class or two. Anyway you look at it it is not a real college degree program.
     
  13. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Much of what has been stated I feel is heresay ... I've spoken to this friend ... read on the pub....

    Let me relate my experience concerning the AA. When I was accepted into KW, I had to provide transcripts with my AA Degree, and have the remainder of my RA credits transferred within 30 days of joining the school. This requirement is a part of the agreement a student signs. If the student is not able to validate, he/she is subject to disciplinary action. As many who read DL info know, KW will fail, and even take further actions, when warranted.

    KW does offer credit for life experience, but, if a person does not have a AA degree, they must pass a series of tests to meet the eligabilty to join their program. I've also read on the pub, that without the AA, and just passing the tests, these students may be required to complete as much as nine courses. Also, for all students a thesis is mandatory. At KW this is a tough process, and is under strict guidance of RA faculty advisors.

    I am convinced whether it's CCU or KW, on this board, all state liscenced non-RA schools are bashed. It is constantly brought up that RA schools will accept their transfer. Who cares? I plan on getting my EMBA from KW, and they will accept my BS Degree.

    The bottom line is that the US DoE has granted power to the states to grant degree issuing authority to schools which meet these state's criteria: CCU and KW and Century all meet this criteria, like it or not, and I am sure it drives the RA schools crazy.
     
  14. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Hi RJT

    There are a lot of problems and misinformation in the post you just made.

    As has been stated before, if you are happy with an unaccredited substandard program that is illegal in two states from a company (not a university) that keeps moving to evade regulation then go for it.

    However, to suggest that program is good choice and is anything approaching a legitmate degree program is just completely incorrect.

    By your own admission the most K-W will require is 9 classes. Do you know of ANYONE who has had take more than 9 course at K-W? Do you really believe 9 classes equals the 40 classes a bachelor's degree requires?

    There are other problems in your post, but considering the fact that you keep ignoring the valid points being made there isn't much point in going over them.

    Anyway, good luck in your program if you really are a student. If not, I wonder if you believe in the idea of karma?:D
     
  15. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Responce

    While maxium unerstood classes may be 9 classes, KWU is clear that entry into the program assumes the student is at a Senior staus, with the AA Degree, and work experience. As mentioned, if the AA Degree is not had, the student must assume a series of tests to assure eliagibility. If unabel to pass, the student must complete remedial courses prior.

    Most private schools are puesdo-corporations. KW is not evasive, they claim exactly what they are.

    1. They clearly state that they are non-RA
    2. They state tha they are a state liscenced post secondary educational insitution, with state liscencure granted from WY
    3. They state that they can not except students from CA, but maintain offices there. They are abiding of this position.

    I'd rather deal w/an org that presnts its limitations upfront, than to go w/a SL University which claims bogus accrediation.
     
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Regarding your heresay argument, a good indication that K-W is a worthless degree mill is the fact that K-W does not publish the graduation requirements for their degrees. The fact that the published entrance "requirements" contains non-requirements like an AA. (All AA's require at least 60 credits.) The fact that there is no published meaning for entrance examinations. (BTW RJT, were you caught in a lie because you failed to mention the examination entrance requirement?) The fact that K-W has no published process for converting work experience into college credits. So your argument that much of the criticism is based on heresay is in-and-of-itself an argument that K-W is a worthless degree mill. We wouldn't have to use heresay on a real school because this information would be publicly published and available.

    Regarding your experience with K-W entrance requirements. Real schools will want to see all transferring credits BEFORE the student becomes a student. IIRC, you claim to have a total of 103 transfer credits. K-W not validating some 40 of your credits until after they had specified your graduation requirements should tell you something about the type of operation that K-W is.

    Regarding having to take up to 9 courses to get a K-W Bachelor degree, I admit I'm flabbergasted by this argument. A bachelor degree is 120 credits or closer to 40 classes, NOT 9!

    Regarding this site bashing all unaccredited schools, there is some truth to this statement and it is because an unaccredited degree has minimal utility, especially an undergraduate degree. However, K-W is a horrible degree mill. Look at the discussion on this board regarding CCU, for example. I believe that it is generally accepted that CCU is a real school. Perhaps the standards are not up to RA but at least they aren't a total joke like K-W.

    Regarding your bottom line, the RA schools don't care in the least about you or your degree mill. They are in the business of education not in fraud enforcement. K-W is a degree mill that can't accept students from their home state for fear of legal prosecution. K-W is a degree mill that has hopped from address to address as they try to stay a step ahead of fraud enforcement.
     
  17. wfready

    wfready New Member

    Bill & Dave,


    Is being a company a bad thing? I believe there are legit schools that are actually companies right?

    I HOPE you mean real schools will not evaluate attempted transfered credits until you have given them OFFICIAL transcripts. Not, that if a school wants you enroll before they evaluate you transfer then it is not a REAL college. Also, you can have an informal credit eval before you even send your transcript (Univ of Ohio did this for me, printed out and all) Different colleges have different rules. Doesn't make them a degree mill.

    I am enrolling in a program at ODU that requires me to take 12 courses (all upper level)to complete a BS. Does this make Old Dominion a degree mill? Now, I know 9 courses is a little lacking.. However, do we know the material and length of these courses? Considering that this school is unaccredited, it could have something completly different than a traditional college course. It COULD be intensive. It might not. Who knows (and that's one good reason why I, personally, would not go with an unaccredited college. There is no assurance that I will get a good education).

    I agree with you guys on thinking that going the unaccredited route is not the best choice. I just think the SOME of the reasons you two are giving are a bit questionable. Just thought I'd push some buttons. :D

    Best Regards,

    Bill
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2002
  18. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Responce

    I would guess that the reason that K-W doesn't claim bogus accreditation is that then Wyoming fraud enforcement might have something more concrete to go after them with. The Wyoming laws covering degree mills is pathetically weak (along with Montana). That is why K-W uses a Wyoming address. If K-W was as honest as you seem to claim they would close their doors because their diplomas aren't worth the paper that they're printed on.
     
  19. Originally posted by wfready

    Is being a company a bad thing? I believe there are legit schools that are actually companies right?

    No. But this is a company that's not a school, masquerading as one.


    I am enrolling in a program at ODU that requires me to take 12 courses (all upper level)to complete a BS. Does this make Old Dominion a degree mill?

    If the degree requires only those 12 (presumably traditional 3-credit) courses, and no others, then yes.. it's a mill.

    Now, I know 9 courses is a little lacking.. However, do we know the material and length of these courses? Considering that this school is unaccredited, it could have something completly different than a traditional college course.

    Western Governors University bases their programs entirely on "competency domains" rather than upon specific coursework requirements. IMHO, that falls into the "completely different" category. The difference between that approach and K-W is, of course, that K-W apparently doesn't care about "competency domains," except competency to remit payment and pass 5-9 courses. In the absence of some other defined, reasonable measurement of current or prior learning, 5-9 courses does not a degree make.

    It COULD be intensive. It might not. Who knows (and that's one good reason why I, personally, would not go with an unaccredited college.

    And I COULD be a millionaire, but for a shortage of about a million dollars. Similarly, K-W COULD be a legit school, but for its abject lack of minimum standards.

    - DM
     
  20. wfready

    wfready New Member

    Agreed. However, transfer in a 2 year degree and 5 years experience (referring to RJT's story). how does this automatically classify as a degree mill? Now, granted their evaluation of experience is probably, to say the least, unorthodox. However, if they were to grant credit (or in RJT's case [considering it seems like K-W doesnt use a credit system] grants a level of standing [ie freshman, sophmore, 9 classes to go, 5 classes to go]) I don't see a problem in it. They could have some sort of legit system of evaluation for work experience (now, before you spurt off that they don't, please show me where you found this information because I don't know if K-W is a degree mill or not, BUT I do know it has a lousy webpage).

    Is this in their catalog or something? I couldn't find ANYTHING about curriculum or evaluation methods or any of the sort (again, lousy website). Is this something you heard?


    Minimum standards according to NA , RA or any other recognised accrediting. Which would lay odds against K-W being a legit school, but does that mean its a degree mill? I wouldn't know, honestly (because I can't find any information on it), which would drive me away from this school from the start. However, somone feels they can benefit from it (RJT) and maybe those guys on the alumni profiles page on their website (heh).


    Best Regards,

    Bill


    PS. I COULD WISH to be a millionaire. I am a lousy hundrednaire (not even that after my wife takes my money) Brokenairre?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2002

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