DBA vs. PhD and more...

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It's said that the surest indication of genius is the extent another person agrees with you

 

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Ted,

In my personal experience, if you are able to negotiate with your supervisor full time employment and doctoral studies then I guess the part time or full time status won't really matter.

However, the issue is that doctoral students are normally seen as cheap labour for research assistant positions and professors are more keen to accept a full time student that will produce research that will support the supervisor`s research than a part time student that won't really have time to support research activities. On the other hand, there are few students that manage the get the support of a supervisor even for part time studies but this is more the exeption than the rule.

PhDs are not really seen as cash cows but more of source for potential research assitants. There is a market for part time PhD programs that is willing to pay and the proof is the success of programs like the ones offered by NCU or Nova.

I think that in general. Universities overlook at this market and do not see the huge potential that represent part time PhD programs more towards professionals rather than academics.

 

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The question is what market are they designed for? For the most parts schools like NCU,Walden,Tuoro, et al. have a limited number of programs offering the Doctorate degree. The next question is what does one plan on doing with their degree after graduation? Considering the "cheap" option of NCU $24,000, that seems like a lot of money for the novelty of being called doctor. Also considering in some instances it can be a detriment to have a doctoral degree in the labor market, it makes you wonder what the motivation for the degree is? If they don't want to pursue academia, it must be for personal reasons, but highly unlikely for vocational reasons.

 

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Many just want self improvement, others just adjunct work on the side, others just a title on their business cards that can be good for consulting.

 

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It is possible that having a doctoral degree from a low-end online university could actually be detrimental for a career.

I have seen this before. A person with bachelor's and master's from reputable B&M universities, capped off with a doctorate from California Coast University. Not to bash CCU, but it's a poor way to cap of an otherwise good academic career.

One must be careful with the doctorate. It really does matter where and how you get it. The highest degree is always the most important and it is worth it to "bite the bullet", as I like to say, and get the best one possible.

 

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Self-improvement is relative and because of it the barometer of such is also relative. The philosophical angle would be how is one truely improving ones self by getting a doctoral degree? If someone can answer that then they are off to an excellent start. As for Adjunct work, we all know it can be very difficult to get adjunct work with a master's degree. I truely do not believe there would be a high enough ROI to justify the investment to teach at the adjunct level(for example at $1,200 a course it would take an adjunct 20 courses to breakeven(At NorthCentral U) and even longer at Capella,Walden, Tuoro,etc. . If that's at UOP or National U (UOP has 6 week terms, National 4 )it might not be too long. At the traditional 16 week variety it would take 4 years to breakeven and that's teaching two courses a semester and two more over the summer(which could leave a busy person with little else to do).
I think the lousiest of all scenerios is the idiot who just wants to be called Doctor, It seems like a lot of work and effort to put Ph D after your name. There are certain instances where a Phd is need for consultancy work(e.g. I/O pyschologist) but there isn't a overall big need for a ton of new business consultant Ph D's and besdies the truely top consulting firms recruit fron the top schools.

In short if there is a big market for Ph D's it could be because these non-traditional doctorate degrees are appealing initially because there were huge barriers of entry for a lot of people interested in obtaining doctorate degrees(Demand was high because people who demanded the degree were unable to obtain them through traditional means). IF there is not high demand in the labor market for these degrees then we shall see the eventually the market contract and many of the weaker schools/programs will not make it. It is also worthwhile to point out that if the case is that these non-traditional Ph D's flood the market and there is such a low demand, it is possible that the overall salary of any Ph D will come down becasue a large cheap supply of labor. I personally don't see any of the above happening, and think that over time it may be more acceptable to obtain a Ph D from an external program, esspecially if the supply gets low on Professors.

 

There are a couple issues here. The bigger the college, the less likely they are to hire a non-AACSB grad. I don't think there is much question about that. Bigger universities will be able to find professors that meet the ACCSB requirement. So a smaller institution may be a better shot.

However, the smaller you go, the less the pay will be (particularly in a field like business where the big universities pay very well). A small institution isn't going to pay business profs $80K a year. Yet the UK's of the world will pay them 6 figures.

So where is EKU? Somewhere in the middle, I suspect. I would look very closely at the credentials of their existing faculty (particularly the assistant professors since they will be the most reent hires). Is it all traditional, big name universities for their doctorates? If so, expect that to be the entry requirement.

 

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A large part of the non-traditional Ph.D market is fueled by the same market as the "hidden job market" placement firms, the ITT and Lincoln Tech trade schools, and the lottery - hope.

I think a larger percentage of people (R. Douglas for example) get a non-traditional doctorate in the hope they will get a tenured position in education (somehow), and leverage themselves into a more prestigious, better payng, less stressful situation (which is another fantasy).

It's (in most cases) not going to happen - but the schools are not telling them that - and so people pursue this credential and rack up thousands of dollars pursuing a fantasy.

 

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Well said. Who is R. Douglas?

 

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The ROI of PhDs programs in general is very low and this is not a secret.

People do not go into adjunt work for money, we already know this but still we see people getting PhDs for this reason.

As for schools hiring online PhDs due to high demand. I really doubt this would happen, this has already happened in some fields and the trend is to hire people with strong MBAs (e.g. Harvard, MIT) rather than weak PhDs (e.g. NCU).

Academics are not fools, I don't see them accepting a 3 year part time online program with the same regards as a 5 year full time program.

 

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This would be so if and only if $1200/course was the difference between one's new doctoral payrate and one's old master's payrate.

 

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What we do see is master's degrees, particularly MBAs, becoming a dime a dozen; consequently, we see people getting doctorates to stand out from other potential adjuncts. It's known as credentials creep.

 

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Can you quantify how you're coming up with a "3 year part time online program"?

 

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This is based on the reports to this forum. We have seen reports of even two years although this has been justified by coursework transfers.

The PhD only requires 51 credits (supposing you have an MBA already).

It seems that you can take 3 credit courses every 2 months including dissertation units so you can do the math.

In addition, I know at least two people that finished a PhD in 3 yeas and half but told me that a 3 year was possible with no breaks.

 

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A three-year, fifty-one credit doctorate requires seventeen credits per year on average. In real life, that would mean eighteen credits in each of two years and fifteen credits in one of the three years. With no breaks, that pans out as six credits each in fall, spring, and summer of year one. Six credits in the fall of year two and three credits in spring of year two gets you your twenty-seven coursework credits, leaving you twenty-four dissertation credits, taken six hours each in summer of year two and another six hours each in fall, summer, and spring of year three for a "three-year part-time online doctorate." Now let's look at our "five-year full-time bricks & mortar doctorate." You take six hours each in fall and spring of year one (nothing in the summer), another six hours each in fall and spring of year two (again nothing in the summer), and three hours each in the fall and spring of year three (again nothing in the summer), thus finishing your coursework phase, and then seven or eight hours each of dissertation credit in fall or spring of year four (again nothing in the summer) and another seven or eight dissertation credits each in fall and spring of year five, thus finishing your "five-year full-time bricks & mortar doctorate."

 

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I think that one of the biggest bottle necks of the B&M Doctorates is not the course work but the publication requirements. It takes good two years full time to get those 3 to 4 publications for your doctorate, thing that is not required by schools like NCU.

If publications were required by NCU, I would think that those 3 years part time could go to 6 o 8 years easily. However, if publications were required I would think that you would have hardly any student registered in the school too.

 

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Not all B&M doctorates require publication. I was accepted into a B&M PhD program that could have been done in three years (no publication), part-time provided I took two courses per semester (fall, spring, and summer), worked hard on the dissertation, and didn’t encounter any bureaucratic BS along the way. This wasn't a PhD in business either; it was a PhD in engineering from an ABET accredited university.

We’ve been through this discussion before and I’m not sure why some of you feel the need to go to great lengths to prove a point. Your points are not valid. Some doctoral programs can be done in three years or less from B&M universities. Period!

George Washington University offers a local doctoral cohort program in my area that can be done in three years. The program is designed for working adults. With this program, if you don’t finish your dissertation by the end of the third year, you don’t graduate. The University of Pennsylvania offers a part-time doctoral program designed for working adults that can be done in two years. Steve Foerster has mentioned this one numerous times. He’s probably drooling as he reads this post. Sorry Steve, I couldn’t resist.

 

I can relate!

The local doctoral cohort program with GWU would be perfect for me if it weren't for the price tag. The program is for a DSc in Engineering Management or Systems Engineering (depending on the dissertation focus). I seriously considered it - going so far as to check on financial aid options - but my wife and I decided that it was too much for a degree that I don't really need.

Nonetheless, I am happy with NCU and I am darn lucky that I get the opportunity to earn a doctorate.

 

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This is an excellent point Ted! Although I had considered this, the argument goes that it is very competitive and difficult to get adjunct positions. So most schools although only require master's degrees in most cases,they will not hire anything less than a Ph D. This makes the Ph D a requirement or a barrier to entry (in economic terms). Therefore the master degree should not be considered(unless of course you are already teaching adjunct) or so the argument goes.