DBA vs. PhD and more...

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I`m pretty sure that NCU is not the only school that allows 3 years part time doctorates with no publication requirements. However, I doubt that a PhD graduate with no publications would be given an opportunity at a research institution unless there is a shortage of such graduates. Engineering is competitive and I don`t see a resume without publications going very far than a community college or a small private school. Most of these fast track doctorates are not designed to train academics but to give a doctorate to those looking for a pay increase or self improvement.

In my experience, faculty hiring committes look more at the research work produced than the actual name of the school. In few words, you could have finished a PhD from NCU but have worked three years as post doc research at MIT and have produced top quality publications and still be considered for tenure track regardless of your non pretigious PhD.

I have seen many PhDs from traditional schools with low number of publications being forced to take post docs to build their publications.

The point is that if one wants to work as an academic, you better get the training required to be one.

 

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I agree with this, but several people here in this forum have argued against this. I personally see more PhDs in the market that are unable to get tenure tracks and others argue that there is a shortage of PhDs. I personally think that the PhD would become what it was the MBA but this is only an opinion.

 

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There "may" be a doctorate shrtage in the sciences but there is a glut in everything else (sorry to bust any bubbles).

And honestly, the science shortage isn't real - the US citizen science shortage is real. Roosevelt U just hired a TCN who had just finished their PhD for relative peanuts as a visiting professor.

 

Face it:

• (1) A doctorate is specifically designed to make one eligible to teach at a college or university where more research can be conducted.
  
• (2) An off-shoot benefit might be conducting research for corporations or the government, where the research methods that you learned while obtaining your doctorate can be put to use.
  
• (3) Another offshoot might be starting your own consulting business and then using the doctorate to lend legitimacy to your opinions.

Beyond these three functions, there is very little need for obtaining a doctorate, although there are rare exceptions, of course. My own reasons fall into categories (1) and (3):

• (1) A DBA with a specialization in criminal justice from NCU will allow me to teach online criminal justice courses carte blanche because with a doctorate, potential employers will roll out the red carpet because the doctorate helps them maintain their regional accreditation. Plus, with over 19 years of law enforcement experience (and still being a full-time cop), coupled with a RA doctorate, I will not face any competition for obtaining a position as an online instructor in criminal justice. For those of you who declare that all I need is a Masters in criminal justice to do this, here is an experience that my two cop-friends just had: They both have over 25 years experience in law enforcement, but they were just dismissed from their part-time adjunct positions, simply because their doctorates are not in criminal justice. One has a doctorate in religion and a masters in criminal justice, while the other has a doctorate and a masters in education. They were both told that the regional accreditors are "coming down on the school" and the accreditors want those who teach criminal justice (at the bachelors and masters level) to have at least 18 credits in criminal justice in their doctorate (not in their masters). Thus, having a masters degree in criminal justice isn't sufficient for this particular university, which will remain unnamed. NCU offers a "specialization" in criminal justice in their doctorates, which meets this unique criteria e.g. NCU DBA in criminal justice administration.
  
• (3) This one will not be disclosed publicaly because it is a personal dream or goal.

 

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Hmm. A publications requirement for PhD graduation? That would have been unheard of twenty years ago (i.e., when I was a young, fresh out of undergrad, bricks & mortar grad student), even at the bricks & mortar grad schools. But maybe university faculty have continued to take advantage of the incresing worsening supply & demand situation in order to hand each new generation of doctoral students a worse deal than the previous one. But the main difference is the fact that b&m doctoral students do nothing at all in the summer while ol doctoral students pursue their studies year-round. And yet people seem to be surprised that someone who pursues a goal during 100% of the calendar can finish said goal in 2/3 the number of years as the guy who only works towards his goal during 2/3 of the calendar year. The other thing I was hoping you would respond is why a b&m doctoral student working 6 hours a semester is "full-time" while an ol doctoral student working 6 hours a semester is "part-time." OTOH, even if publication has (or eventually will) become a requirement for doctoral graduation, it will likely be in the form of co-authoring articles with one of your professors and hence the factor of getting recognized will not be a concern, because your committee members will likely already be recognized and you will just ride their coat-tails for your first few articles.

 

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You don't seem to know how doctoral studies work at B&M AACSB accredited Universities. The typical PhD student works about 60 hrs a week, 20 hrs are normally dedicated to research assistant and teaching assistant functions that allow the student to receive a salary enough to survive (around 20K or less a year).

Publications requirements count when you are the "first author" and not the second, third or fourth. Most of the time, these publication requirements are not even set in the calendar but you won't graduate as it would be hard to defend a dissertation with zero publications as "first author". I think that any PhD student at a "real" University can tell you this.

Why 6 course credits is considered full time for PhD studies? Have you taken any doctoral course at a AACSB accredited institution? The average course at this level normally requires something between 15-20 hours a week so if you consider 30-40 hours just in course work plus your 20 hours of teaching and research assistant then you will understand why this is considered a full time status.


I think that most of the full time PhD students would be insulted with your comments that "they do nothing in the summer" as most of them work during the summer with their research as it is perhaps the best time to advance with their dissertation as they don't have coursework to distract them.

I work as a lecturer at a AACSB accredited University and my office is besides the PhD student's office, sometimes I see students there at 2:00 AM or 3:00 in the morning and some of them have been working for more than 6 years for their PhD. When I tell them that NCU can grant them a degree in 3 years part time, they just laugh and they say that they don't see how they can get a job with something like that if the average graduate from an AACSB accredited schools struggles to get a tenure track position and some of them still gor 2 or 3 years for post doc positions before they can land something.

The reason why online PhDs from for profit school are not considered the same as the ones from B&M schools is because they are not the same period.

 

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Well said RFValve. It seems that many people are out of touch with reality and what it takes to get a real doctorate from a reputable university.

Online doctorates have their uses I suppose... vanity awards, adjunct positions at "online" schools... but definately not geared towards serious pursuits.

 

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I may not get how a B&M AACSB university works but I can do the math.

A full-time PhD student works 50-60 hours per week, which when broken down looks like the following:

20 hours for research assistant and teaching assistant functions
30-40 hours for two courses

How is this different than working a full-time 40+ hours per week job and working 15-20 hours per week for one course? It sounds as though if you cut out the university BS, you could work part-time on a PhD from a B&M AACSB university.

I can easily spend 15-20 hours per week per course. The difference is I work full-time and only take one course per semester (to include summers).

I would love nothing more than to have the opportunity to quit my job and work full-time on an AACSB B&M PhD, but since I am the bread winner in the family, I have bigger responsibilities than just me. Also, my goal in earning a PhD is not the same as yours. I have no desire to take a pay cut to enter academia. You, however, are more than welcome to.

 

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RFvalue is right on track. There is a difference between B&M and on-line experiences. The letters after your name may be the same, but the experience simply isn't.

I might differ a little with Scott. Short residency doctorates (such as NSU) have served a purpose for some folks in obtaining teaching positions in middle tier schools. I would characterize my career as "serious", although not at a top tier research school. They have definite limitations, however, and students need to be aware of these.

Regards - Andy

 

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First, you will probably finish your doctorate before at NCU than a full time student at a AACSB accredited PhD full time program.

Secondly, because almost one third of the work at a full time program is related to academic work, the full time student is most likely to accumulate teaching and research experience than the the average online PhD student.

Again, we are comparing apple with oranges. The same stands for a two year MBA program versus the 1 year part time MBA program offered at some online schools. Both are MBAs but the experience is not the same.

As for payment paycut, this is relative. Professors salaries might be less than industry ones but you get to make extra money by giving seminars and consultancy work so evens out at the end.

 

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My frame of reference, if I somehow failed to point it out in previous posts, was from my experience as a young (straight out of undergrad) graduate student in history at the University of Colorado Boulder in 1985-1986. More specifically, it comes from information passed on to the students in a graduate seminar in Modern British History by Professor Charles Ronald Middleton, who Associate Dean of Arts & Sciences. Expectations for publications records back then (twenty years ago) did not include needing a publications record just to get hired (much less to be graduated from a doctoral program); rather, the expectations regarding one's first publication (back then) were that one would publish one's dissertation within the first five years of one's first assistant professorship, the successful completion of which requirement would lead to tenure and promotion to associate professor, with the one journal article per academic term (or one new book every five years, with a new chapter thereof shown to one's department chair) being the expectation thereafter. Thus, the idea of needing to be published just to get a first professorship (and now needing to be published just to graduate a doctoral program) seems all quite new and different to me, compared to the expectations that applied back when I was a young adult in my twenties. You still don't explain why six hours a term for online doctoral students is part-time while six hours a term for bricks & mortar doctoral students is full-time. The major bottle-neck is still the fact that bricks & mortar doctoral programs offer nothing for summer term coursework.

 

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First, courses at a PhD program like NCU are designed for part time students while courses at a full time PhD program are designed for full time students that have the time for commitment. Yes, both are 3 credits but they are not the same when it comes to work.

For example, take a course like MET Operations Research that is supposed to be at the PhD level at NCU. The content of this course is even less that what I cover at a 3 credit course at the undergraduate level where I teach. Any management science PhD student can tell you that this is not really a "doctoral" level course but really a bachelors or even may be a MBA level course.

Compare any of the courses for the NCUs PhD in Quantitative Business with for example the PhD in Operations Management at New York University

http://w4.stern.nyu.edu/ioms/academic.cfm?doc_id=2553#courses


You can see that the level of course work is not the same. Again, NCU courses are not designed to prepare academics.

You can even see that the calendar clearly states "Students will be required to complete the doctoral program within six years (most students will graduate in 4-5 years)."

How is possible that a student that is required to have a high GPA and high GMAT scores actually takes longer to complete courses than a student at NCU where admission requirements are much lower?

We are comparing apples with oranges. Any type of argument that tries to say online PhDs are equal in effort to full time PhDs from B&M AACSB accredited schools are not really grounded in reality.

 

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Actually, no...both schools serve pretty much the same market - with NCU appealing to those to can't (or won't) attend one week (or two long weekends) per six month term. NCU also offers a military discount (a definate plus for me).

The primary differences appear to be:

1. NSU has a strong B&M presence - and has been at it longer - giving them a stronger presence in the marketplace. Perhaps related to this - they have more program offerings than NCU.

2. NCU makes far more use of adjunct faculty than NSU. Many a beer can be dispoed of comparing and discussing the merits of adjunct vs. FT and the resumes of the faculty (adjunct are cheap and NSU pays FT bupkis & Florida sunshine). NSU's SCIS dept DOES have way to many "home grown" Ph.D.'s. Can't speak for the other depts.

3. NSU students are eligible for federal education loans, NCU is not.

It will be interesting to see the situation in 5 years, 10 years.

 

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I'll go along with that. To just state there is a difference doesn’t really mean anything. When you state the difference, your statements take on meaning.

While you are getting the academic experience, those of us working full-time are getting the real-world experience. I agree that these experiences are not the same. Personally, I use the material I learn in class and apply it to my job. I also watch others and compare and contrast behaviors and actions to what I have learned. What works in theory is often times much harder to apply in the real world.

I would say that the real difference in time has more to do with the requirement to publish rather than the amount of time spent in the classroom. If NCU were to start requiring publishing [which wouldn’t be a bad thing], the program would take longer.

And while a professor's salary may be low, hitting the lecture trail and consulting can definitely make up the difference.

As far as the limitation of an NCU degree. Again, I agree with you. Your degree will have much more utility than mine and it is important to inform those members of this board that are unaware of this fact.

 

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Based on what I have seen, "graduate" courses at online schools like Touro, NCU or Phoenix are set a Associate/Bachelor-level at best. Don't hate me for this, but it is MY observation.

 

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This is not a fight about my "degree" is better than yours. I think that you are getting something valuable from your degree and it serves you well as this is what you are looking for.

My only point is that although degree names migh be the same the experiences might be different so one should know exactly what type of training requires to achieve the goal wanted.

 

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Having taught or TAed in two of those graduate programs, I have to say that you are mistaken. In fact, I once saw a presentation in an undergraduate marketing class that I taught that would have earned at least a B in my own MBA marketing class that I took long ago at a B&M institution. So, in my opinion, as an instructor, I should offer that you are least partially incorrect and perhaps totally incorrect in your assessment.

Dave

 

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Some thoughts:

NSU is one of the oldest and most respected of the non-traditional programs that really don't get enough respect.

NCU is so new and its online residency so controversial that it is unclear what tradition it will establish. One clear difference between the training is that NSU graduates do have a publication requirement to graduate.

NCU seems to attract lots of folks who don't seem to have any idea what they are getting themselves into by trying to earning a doctorate: low pay, entrenched bigotry against distance formats, and the necessity of publishing, etc.

Part of the NSU socialization process seems to be that doctoral students are told that they are better trained than other non-traditional students. This "you are contenders they are pretenders" attitude has come across in several interactions I've had with NSU people. However, they seem to have similar training to my own. I mean no offense; it is just an observation.

I know three people pursuing their doctorates at NCU who are sincere and scholarly whom I know will be excellent professors.

Dave

 

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Forgive my inexperience on this topic, but someone please clarify/confirm. NCU is North Central University, correct? and NSU (there are 6 when Googled), are you talking Nova, Northwestern State, another one?

NSU is, for the most part, getting decent reviews from most of you (for a DL institution that is).

Thanks!