ASIC and Warnborough University

No, indeed you don't. Whatever is printed up, bought or easily obtained would likely convince enough uninformed people. A Doctorate is the most impressive type - but certainly doesn't have to be a PhD. Never said it did.

Just saying - any degree can be used in a harmful way. You said religious-exempt degrees are "not harmful" as long as they don't have secular-looking titles. I say some have been - and still can be harmful, through mis-use.

Not singling out the degrees of any particular school or schools, here. Just disagreeing with your one statement.

Yes - by all means, let's blame the Internet! :smile:

J.

 

It doesn't? Can you tell us where we can confirm this information? Do you know where we can read what degrees they can offer, vs. what they can't?

Why do I ask? This is from the Wiki, quoted in an old DI thread (2010).

Universidad Azteca de Chalco is affiliated to Centro de Estudios Superiores Azteca. The private university was established in 1994 and recognized by the federal Secretary of Public Education (SEP) of the United States of Mexico first in 1997. The university is officially recognized with Reconocimiento de Validez Oficial de Estudios (RVOE) by the Secretary of Public Education (SEP) to award graduate and postgraduate degrees * including the following study areas:International Commerce, Business Administration , Information Systems and Data Processing (IT), Law, Psychology (including NLP, Coaching).(Public) Accounting (including Financial Management), Educational Science

* - emphasis mine - J.

If I'm correctly informed, an RVOE (Reconocimiento de Validez Oficial de Estudios) pertains to a specific program - I think they'd need one for each authorized degree program.

j

 

This is kind of a stretch, Johann. There have been plenty of televangelists who bilk their followes out of retirement plans. Some have accredited degrees. Some have unaccredited degrees. Some have no degrees at all. I don't believe Jimmy Swaggart ever claimed any sort of degree. His path followed your example almost to the letter. You meant to tell me a televangelist who did the exact same things as Swaggart, but with a doctorate awarded under a religious exemption, is more dangerous than Swaggart? That he was more unethical? These behaviors don't have anything to do with the degree. If you give all of your money to Credlo Dollar it's typically because you believe in that smile and that brand of theology not because you respect his formal education.

 

Tony Russo. High school dropout with a Ph.D. from Universal Life University. License plate on his Cadillac: DOCTOR1. Busted for running a large sex therapy clinic in upstate New York. Harmful.

 

In Mexico, things work a bit different than in Canada and US. A University is only authorized degrees that have an RVOE number.
In few words, if University of America grants me a PhD in Nuclear Physics and then I go with Azteca for a validated degree. Azteca would grant me a PhD but this degree has no official value in Mexico.
Azteca is using the same logic as Spanish schools that differentiate between "propio" or owned and "oficial" or official. Azteca claims that they grant "propio" degrees that they can do but have no official value in Mexico and therefore will not be evaluated as equivalent to a degree in US or Canada.
I learned about this as I am working in a project that for recognition of foreign credentials in Canada and learned about different systems around the world.
In few words, for a degree from Mexico to valid in Canada, it needs an RVOE number.
You cannot go and start validating any degree you want in the world and make it official in Mexico, you can grant a degree but this will not have any official recognition.
These are the only degrees recognized from Azteca

http://www.sirvoes.sep.gob.mx/sirvoes/ServletInstProg

There is one doctorate but in Education, nevertheless, Azteca validates DBA and PhDs in business according to its website but they do mention that they are not official.
In few words, to the average employer, the Azteca degree might look real but for those that need an official document that recognizes the degree, the degree would need to be official.
The other issue is about the documentation supplied for this "validation". Are they going to supply with transcripts from the institution with the course work approved by the minister of education or just a document that states that is "equivalent" to an Azteca degree. If the last statement is the case, then the validated degree has no more value than a WES document but in this case granted by the University. The University of Toronto has a similar service that evaluate degrees but these are not University of Toronto degrees but just reports that state their equivalency to University of Toronto degrees but yet people try to abuse this type of documents to state that they have earned a University of Toronto degree.

 

Yes, in few words, Azteca would need an RVOE for every degree that they validate for this to be official. In Mexico, it is actually very difficult to get a foreign degree recognized, you would need to supply your transcripts and the SEP needs to verify that degree is very close to the ones that they have authorized with the same degree title. In few words, if I hold a PhD in Nuclear Physics from the University of Toronto but this degree is not in the SEP list, it will not be officially recognized. For this reason, we are working with other tools to get them recognized, Washington accord for example allows the recognition of foreign engineering degrees in Mexico regardless of titles or contents.
The other tool is the Apostille but in Canada this has not been approved mainly because the abuse of this tool in the world, the perfect example is Pebble Hills University that can grant you a degree based on your experience and the issue an apostille for this document, many countries in the Middle east accept apostilled University degrees from American schools so this gives a lot of business to Pebble Hills that claims to be registered in the US and grants Apostilled degrees.
Every country has different set of rules, of course the market has the last word when it comes to recognition of credentials, you might have all the official documents you want but it is always up the employer to recognize the credential for employment purposes.

 

Thanks - had a little trouble making that link work, but finally did. Nice neat table, but it downloads funny. From the Government site, here are the degrees that Azteca has RVOE for:

EN EDUCACION
DOCTORADO
RVOE NO ESCOLARIZADA 20123180
2012-12-14
FEDERAL

EN ADMINISTRACION DE EMPRESAS
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 982009
1998-02-10
FEDERAL

EN ARQUITECTURA
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 2004321
2004-07-14
FEDERAL

EN COMERCIO INTERNACIONAL
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 2003090
2003-03-19
FEDERAL

EN CONTADURIA PUBLICA
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 972417
1997-11-10
FEDERAL

EN DERECHO
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 972418
1997-11-10
FEDERAL

EN DERECHO
LICENCIATURA
RVOE MIXTA 20032007
2003-01-13
FEDERAL

EN INFORMATICA ADMINISTRATIVA
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 972419
1997-11-10
FEDERAL

EN PEDAGOGIA
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 20091342
2009-12-18
FEDERAL

EN PEDAGOGIA
LICENCIATURA
RVOE NO ESCOLARIZADA 20123181
2012-12-14
FEDERAL

EN PSICOLOGIA
LICENCIATURA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 982010
1998-02-10
FEDERAL

EN CIENCIAS DE LA EDUCACION
MAESTRIA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 20091224
2009-11-24
FEDERAL

EN CIENCIAS DE LA EDUCACION
MAESTRIA
RVOE NO ESCOLARIZADA 20110619
2011-07-29
FEDERAL

EN DERECHO FISCAL
MAESTRIA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 20091226
2009-11-24
FEDERAL

EN DERECHO PENAL
MAESTRIA
RVOE ESCOLARIZADA 20081553
2008-06-30
FEDERAL

So - thanks to RFValve, we know definitively which Azteca degrees are Government-recognized (RVOE).

J.

 

They should know better. An apostille says only that the accompanying document is genuine - i.e. not a forgery. In other words, it's a genuine diploma from "die Freie Universität der Titelmühlen" ( the Free Degree Mill University) - and not one skilfully engraved by Hans-Dieter, the master forger of Düsseldorf.

J.

 

Re: the above. What I meant to say - if it's a genuine, accredited US school - OK, no problem. If it's a bogus school, the apostille doesn't make the degree worth anything. The quality of the issuing school is an indication of degree utility. No upgrade by apostille.

J.

 

The bottom line is that in most countries, universities are not allowed to operate without government approval. The exception is the US where you can open a university in many states without government approval. In most countries, if you have a university degree that is attested as genuine, it is a valid university degree, not many know that in the US anyone can open a university with few thousand dollars and a web site domain.

In some countries, universities are allowed to operate as long as they are foreign universities. The most notorious degree mill that uses this loophole is Open International University in Sri Lanka, they claim that they are a University in kazakhstan that is a country with a very weak system so it is practically impossible to know if their kazakhstanian license is real and why they operate in Sri Lanka and not in kazakhstan where they were granted their university status.

Like Open University, there are quite a few that use this loophole to operate in several parts of the world. There are quite a few individuals that seem to make millions of dollars by selling PhDs that look real and use loopholes and other flaws in the system to operate and grant fast and cheap degrees.

 

Most countries? There are plenty of locations where Government approval is pretty well automatic, if you buy a permit. In those jurisdictions, the permit makes the school's degrees "legal" but does not give them any standing. Examples are Panama, and various Swiss cantons. Swiss cantonally-approved schools are sort of special. The quality ranges from millish to very good indeed. None have the equivalent of institutional accreditation, but a few have programmatic accreditation, e.g. ACBSP. One school (IMD) has "triple crown" business program accreditation - AACSB, AMBA and EQUIS. That's as good as it gets, I think.

Other places, you can safely incorporate a university and run it with no additional permit. Often this is due, I think, more to lack of enforcement than actual legislation. There are schools incorporated this way in Dominica, British Virgin Islands and other locales. Steve Foerster reported recently that Iceland required no permit or fee, but they did want their corporate taxes! :smile:

France has provisions for approving universities that operate legally but cannot grant "mainstream" State degrees. We've discussed several of them. Finland - same deal. There are far too many exceptions to "most countries." I think people charged with the responsibility of discerning "wheat from chaff" in regard to degrees from outside their own country should have the requisite knowledge, take the necessary pains to acquire it - or leave the job to authorized evaluators.

Yeah, there sure are -- and at DI we know most of their names. They certainly have given us some lively threads over the years, though! Gotta give 'em that! :smile:

J.

 

Empresarial in Costa Rica is also playing the same game, they have a license to issue few degrees but yet grant PhDs in several fields and Masters degrees in a wide range of areas. They also validate degrees from several schools including the prestigious Pebble Hills.

Empresarial and Azteca get away with this because these degrees are granted to people outside Costa Rica and Mexico so their ministers of education do not have a clue of their operations. It is very lucrative to validate a PhD as all you do is print a diploma and sign it, as the holder of the degree is not going to use in Costa Rica or Mexico and most likely in a remote place in Africa, there is no risk that someone would complain to the minister of education of their respective countries.

The whole scam of ASIC accreditation and degree validation is connected, as someone mentioned here, their primary market is developing nations that cannot afford better but they are really getting nothing.

 

You are right, but the reality is that many use them with apostilles around the world. In some countries like in the UK, you cannot apostille a University that is not a real UK school, the system would not allow someone to apostille a fake University.
The apostille was supposed to be a system to legalize foreign degrees but the problem is that people abuse it and I agree that it cannot be trusted.

 

Yes - certainly a biggie. From degrees4sale Blog:

In the last decade, they have sold over a million ( read: Million ) PhD (Medicina Alternativa- MA ), MD ( MA ), DSc ( MA ) and a grocery list of other titles in Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Alternative Medicines ( MA ) .

The "Grocery list" includes "Knighthoods" and "Albert Schweitzer Prizes." Some talk of bogus "Nobel Prizes in Alternative Medicine" too, I note.

Probably because the founder, a Western-trained senior consultant rheumatologist, was well-established, with many government contacts, in Sri Lanka. From degrees4sale Blog:

The late Anton Jayasuria used to run a month long courses in Acupuncture; since he also ran a large real estate and hotel property with his brother Professor Dr. Sir John Jayasuria to accommodate the large number of students arriving in Sri Lanka for their degree studies.

Here's the whole blog on OIUCM - makes interesting reading, I think. Asian Degree Mills

J.

 

Yes - AFAIK, Universidad Empresarial in Costa Rica was given CONESUP approval to award precisely three on-ground degrees: two Bachelor's and one Master's. No distance degrees whatsoever. What is confusing to me is - exactly where are these "other" degrees being issued from? Costa Rica? I don't think they all are. I've heard stories about people running a Universidad Empresarial "campus" from Poland, and also from Arizona. :question: :question: :question:

J.

 

Universidad Azteca, so it says, a "certified member" of AAHEA, the American Association for Higher Education and Accreditation, an unrecognized accrediting agency. Azteca's MBA and DBA degrees are accredited by AAHEA.

The Dean of Azteca's European programmes (in collaboration with mainly Swiss and Austrian schools, as far as I know) is - along with Fred DiUlus, who's an AAHEA director - one of ASIC's academic advisors.

Another of AAHEA's directors is on the University of America Board of Trustees.

 

Is it really any different than the people who use mill transcripts for employers and, occasionally, to continue their education? When things look official people have a tendency to assume they are legit.

I know a hiring manager who doesn't believe any online certificate is legit UNLESS they also provide you with a physical hard copy printed on fancy paper. eCornell sends you your cert in a PDF. So you can print it on whatever paper you like. But to him, the fact that they don't physically mail it makes it sketchy. Of course it's stupid. But people have their perceptions.

 

I have seen apostilles for University diplomas, they are quite impressive documents full of signatures and impressive seals, electronic signatures and web sites for validation.
To the average person, a diploma with an apostille looks pretty legit, this would even more legit if the school has an official name such as Breyer state university or Washington International University.

If you add on top of this a transcript with ASIC accreditation recognized by CHEA and the British government, very few would question it and believe is a real degree. I am sure the ASIC accreditation is all over their transcripts with the same story that is CHEA recognized and UK approved.

 

An apostille is like a notary. All it does is confirm that the document in question (or, in the case of a notary, a signature) is what it says it is. An apostille does nothing to ensure that the issuing entity of the document (diploma in this case) is legitimate or recognized.

Apostilles add as much value as ASIC when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a degree claim: zero.

 

ASIC is peculiar in that it has chosen to partner with itself.

On ASIC - Partnerships it’s stated that ASIC has partnered with several international organisations in higher education. The two most significant – according to ASIC – are QISAN and ASIQUAL.

QISAN, The Quality International Study Abroad Network is described as a network for education providers and agents, and the aim of the network is to give its members access to what is referred to as other ethically minded operators. Quite a few QISAN members are accredited by ASIC.

www dot qisan com

ASIQUAL is – according to ASIC – an awarding body catering to the needs of employers throughout the world interested in having skilled workers. In addition, ASIQUAL offers validation, endorsements and certifications.

www dot asiqual dot com

All three companies – ASIC, QISAN and ASIQUAL – have their offices at 13 Yarm Road, Stockton-on-Tees, UK