Zimmerman Charged

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Maniac Craniac, Apr 11, 2012.

  1. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    When in academy and afterwards we were taught double tap then one to the head called a Mozambique Drill...but when I went to a specialist training program we were trained to fire center mass until the target was down. I liked that drill as it required less accuracy and was much quicker. Of course that drill was more about fire power and target suppression but even on the street I would think it would be much more effective. One of the instructors could empty a Glock 19 (15 rounds) almost instantly (sounded like a machine gun almost) and would drop and reload on the move. It was very impressive and yet required less skill than the Mozambique Drill.

    As for self defense...same deal unless engaging multiple attackers.
  2. DLer

    DLer New Member

    There are consequences to all of our actions as human beings. Each individual is responsible for his or her actions. Shooting and killing another person is a really, really big deal. When the citizen who makes the decision to go out and get a gun, obtain a concealed weapon permit, carry that gun around during their normal daily activities, decides to shoot and kill another citizen, then that person automatically puts themselves in a position whereby they may and probably will face scrutiny from other citizens.

    Nobody forced George Zimmerman to obtain and carry the gun. George Zimmerman made the choice to pull the trigger. Those are big people decisions. If he is/was a mature, emotionally stable citizen who used foresight in his decision to purchase a gun, carry a concealed weapon, thought through the ramifications of killing another citizen, then used that weapon, then he should be mature and emotionally stable enough to handle the consequences of his actions. If not, then he should never have purchased the gun, gotten a concealed weapon permit and make the decision to shoot another citizen.

    Fortunately the law of the land will give a person in this situation due process, which in this case George Zimmerman is getting and will get. That's part of what makes this country great.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2012
  3. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    He'll get exactly what he deserves.
  4. 03310151

    03310151 New Member

    Which is what, exactly?
  5. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Everyone (except me, of course) is being extremely reactive and "not so smart."

    Do you imagine that you have all the facts? Have you viewed the witnesses transcipts? Have you seen the physical evidence? Yet you are willig to judge.

    There will be a big trial. Under the microscope. Can't you just let the justice system takes it's course before you offer an opinion?

    No, of course you can't. So . . . . . . . . . carry on.
  6. 03310151

    03310151 New Member

    Exactly my point. NBC, the AP, MSNBC, CNN all rushed to judgement on this case without any of the facts and in a couple of cases made up their own facts of the case...It's disgusting that most people rushed to judgement against the Hispanic guy...the kid is dead and that is a tragedy but puting a bounty on Zimmermans head is callus and uncalled for, Tweeting the suspected address of the Zimmermans is callus and uncalled for, this is a rotten spectacle of American media bias and a rush to judgment that should give all of us a great pause.

    Except you of course, you've been level headed and open minded about the whole affair. How does your massive ego even fit into one place all at the same time? :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2012
  7. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Well, let's see here now. Zimmerman was young Mr. Martin's cop, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner. In other words, he dished out vigilante justice to Mr. Martin. Why the hell should he be surprised that he is now on the receiving end of vigilante justice? BTW - Mr. Martin can't tell his side of the story. He's dead. And do you think for one minute that we should just uncritically accept his bullshit claim of self-defense?
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2012
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    By using the term "bullshit" in reference to his statements to police, you've eliminated any chance of objectivity on your part.

    How do you know it's "bullshit"? Were you there? Whatever happened to letting the investigation run its full course before convicting people in the court of public opinion?

    This case has exposed the very worst of America.....race-baiting for personal gain on the part of Al Sharpton, et al., ridiculously biased media coverage to inflame racial tensions (doctoring 911 recordings), and a rush to judgment on the part of the general public, who know nothing about the facts of the case, thanks to how the media is showcasing it......"white (he's actually Hispanic) male shoots and kills unarmed black teen"....GUILTY!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!
  9. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    The only thing we know with 100% certainty is that Zimmerman killed Martin. Beyond that we don't know squat. The news media is telling half truths and out right lies (edited 911 audio, edited video, false statements, etc). We don't know if it was self-defense, murder, vigilante justice or anything else for that matter.

    Here are a just few false items that appeared in tens of thousands of newspapers, radio broadcasts and TV broadcasts. This irresponsible reporting just fuels the flames.

    Zimmerman used a racial slur. FALSE. He said "f---ing punks"
    George Zimmerman did not use racial slur in 911 call, prosecutors say | NJ.com

    Zimmerman offered that Martin was black. FALSE. He was answering a police dispatcher's question.
    NBC admits editing George Zimmerman's 'he looks black' call, claims 'production error'

    Zimmerman did not have injuries. FALSE. He had injuries to his nose and head.
    Enhanced video shows apparent injury on George Zimmerman's head, police say - Crimesider - CBS News
  10. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    Based on what little evidence that has been released by authorities, there is a fair amount that backs up Zimmerman's claims. Surely you acknowledge this point. I think we should be very critical of anyone's claim of self-defense when someone is dead.

    You should watch this video and read the article below it

    VIDEO: Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz appeared on MSNBC to express some grave doubts about the prosecution’s charges

    20 Year Veteran: Problems with the Zimmerman Affidavit
  11. DLer

    DLer New Member

    "The Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners Association is a likely target for a lawsuit from the family of Trayvon Martin. Twin Lakes is the neighborhood where the shooting occurred and where George Zimmerman lived. This is especially true if George Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense is upheld by the courts as Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law would protect him from a civil suit.

    To bolster their case is the neighborhood newsletter sent in February 2012, the same month as the shooting. Under the “Neighborhood Watch” column, George Zimmerman was listed as the neighborhood watch captain for residents to report suspicious activity or crime. The written endorsement of Zimmerman further exposes the homeowners association to legal action and makes the case harder to defend. Florida courts have upheld that a HOA could be held liable for wrongful death. If the association does not have coverage for this type of loss or significant reserves, the homeowners will pay with increased assessments and higher monthly fees."

    Thanks neighbor!

    How the Trayvon Martin Case May Change Your Homeowners Association | Nashville Real Estate Now
  12. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

  13. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Because...??? (and "they have money!" is not a good answer, even though it is the most obvious)

    Wait- shouldn't they report suspicious activity or crime to the police? You know- the people who really protect neighborhoods?

    Again, what exactly did they do wrong? Was it wrong to have a neighborhood watch captain? Or was it wrong that they had no idea that Zimmerman would end up shooting some kid to death? Should they have known that this would have happened and did something to prevent it? Should every single organization with a little bit of money hire a score of actuaries and psychics to make sure that only good things will ever happen by the hands everyone even remotely tenuously associated with them?

    Or is this country completely lost in its understanding of "justice."
  14. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    Super enhanced video shows I'm one good looking dude :tongue2:

    Seriously ... I was just trying to point out that there were tens of thousands of news articles stating a "video shows Zimmerman had no injuries" when in fact this was incorrect. Several news media organizations (CBS, NBC, MSNBC, etc.) have now recanted and admitted after further examination of the video there does appear to be an injury to Zimmerman's head. The problem is that the damage has already been done and the "retractions" were only in the hundreds versus the original incorrect reports in the tens of thousands.

    Here's a good video by MSNBC showing his head.
    Questions surround Zimmerman surveillance video - Video on msnbc.com

    I'm waiting for evidence at the trial to come out. I'm sure the police took pictures of his head because the police report said he had a head injury. If they failed to take pictures of his head they didn't do their job.
  15. DLer

    DLer New Member

    "If Zimmerman was named watch captain and there are questions about the HOA exercising due diligence in preparing Zimmerman for his role as a community representative, specifically as a Neighborhood Watch leader, negligence can easily make a civil case."

    If you are one of the homeowners who paid $245,000 for a townhome built in 2004, in a community of 250+ families, you have a reasonable expectation that the HOA is going to act responsibly in dealing with the issues within your community. The crimes that were taking place within this community were NOT a series of murders, rapes, drugs busts, etc...they were mostly burglaries, petty thefts, bikes being stolen off back porches etc. A homeowner who lives in this community and pays their HOA has a reasonable expectation that their family and guests can walk within this community without being shot and killed by the HOA endorsed Neighborhood Watch leader.

    The HOA had several options in dealing with the crime in their neighborhood. They could have voted to place a restriction on the number of rental units, they could have voted to vet the renters more closely, they could have voted to hire full time security guards, but they instead chose to form a Neighborhood Watch and endorse George Zimmerman as their NW leader. Did the HOA provide GZ with the proper training? Did the HOA make it clear that Neighborhood Watch citizens should not be armed under any conditions and they should report crime immediately to the police? If not then Florida law would suggest they could be responsible.

    This was probably GZ's first home purchase. He was probably concerned about protecting his investment. However his method of dealing with a rash of burglaries and petty thefts, was to go out and purchase a gun, obtain a concealed weapons permit, arm himself, then take it upon himself to shoot and kill a resident's guest on a Sunday evening at (approx 7:20) in the courtyard of a 250 family townhouse complex. His actions have obviously done more damage to the home values and the sense of security within his community than any crime committed their since it was built.

    It's possible that part of the strong reaction to GZ's actions lie in the fact that many ordinary citizens can ask and answer this question. If I live in a 250 home community and my son or daughter or invited guest has gone up to the neighborhood 7-11 to get some snacks, am I OK with a non-law enforcement fellow resident endorsed by my HOA (which I pay my dues to) shooting and killing my son, daughter or invited guest because he (and he alone) imagines that my son, daughter or invited guest is a threat to the community? That very basic question is what is at the heart of this for many people.

    Trayvon Martin death puts HOA’s and Neighbor Watch programs on notice | DeadlineNews.Com
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2012
  16. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    There are two things we know about this case. Mr. Martin is dead. And Mr. Zimmerman killed him. Mr. Zimmerman's claim of self-defense seems awfully convenient when Mr. Martin can't tell his side of the story now. That's why I have this feeling that something doesn't quite pass the smell test.
  17. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Yeah, my first Townhome was a HOA and I was immediately selected as the HOA Treasurer. The article you posted shows the legalities and responsibilities of the HOA, and they are many. I don't know if they (HOA) envisioned a Neighborhood Watch guy shooting a kid dead on the spot after he notified authorities, and they told him to wait and not pursue. GZ had the option to wait in his car, the kid did not.

    The thrust of Neighborhood Watch programs here in California is to assist LE in reporting and observing possible crime/s. Signs are posted to let would be criminals know there are eyes and ears everywhere. The task of NW is not to pursue with their handguns, though in my Uber conservative County most of my neighbors have guns, inluding me.

    I also agree with the Ted. One guy is living, and one guy is dead. No winners, but at least the living guy will have a chance to present his version of events. After all, if a cop is suspended and investigated thoroughly by LE internal affairs after a shooting, should not a civilian be investigated?

    Those are just my two centavos for now.

    Gotta sign off and finish my early morning pre-work coffee.

    Have a good one folks!


    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2012
  18. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    You seriously think that Zimmerman murdered Martin in cold blood?

    Zimmerman is either a cold-blooded murderer, or he believed he was shooting in self-defense. Considering he had a pistol permit for many years without killing anyone else, I tend to believe the latter.
  19. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Well, we know that murder 1 is off the table because of the prosecutor's decision not to let it go to the grand jury. Other than that, I'm not sure how many other degrees of murder there are (and what's the difference between them). Then there is the possibility of manslaughter. I just don't know which of the above-mentioned possibilities is most appropriate to this case.
  20. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    My guess is that there is little chance of a second degree murder conviction. The sticky point being that the prosecution would have to prove that Zimmerman had some really bad thoughts when he was pulling the trigger. They have a chance at manslaughter. There they have to prove he acted recklessly. Of course, I don't have all the evidence so can't really guess which way it will go.

    I think it is a bad idea to go around chasing down strangers and confronting them. Even if Zimmerman is completely exonerated, I'll bet that he never does that again.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012

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