Zimmerman Charged

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Maniac Craniac, Apr 11, 2012.

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  1. DLer

    DLer New Member

    Have you heard about the Iraq War Vet who was shot by a 71 year old (who also held a concealed weapons permit) in broad daylight in front of his daughter at a neighborhood park? Iraq War veteran killed; widow says Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law is free pass for murder | ksdk.com

    He's listed as one of the concealed weapons permit owners that have murdered over 402 fellow citizens since 2007. VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers
     
  2. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Which, if that is to be believed (the VPC isn't exactly an unbiased source) is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of gun permits held by citizens.

    After Florida instituted their "shall issue" legislation for CCW permits, less than 1/10th of 1% were later revoked for misuse.
     
  3. DLer

    DLer New Member

    The only number that truly really matters is that 402 murders were committed by concealed weapons permit owners since 2007. They obviously didn't get their permits revoked before they murdered their victims.

    And by the way I certainly don't have a problem with off-duty law enforcement carrying concealed weapons. They are trained and know how and when to use them. But my other fellow citizens, the more I read the less i like the idea.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012
  4. 03310151

    03310151 New Member

    402 Murders by permit owners over 5 years? What a tragedy! I'm not sure how you can sleep at night knowing that there were 402 murders over 5 years! Jesus Christ we should lock all gun owners up. Are you concerned with the murder done by criminals who are not CCW holders? How many murders have been perpetrated by someone who did not legally own a handgun over the same period?

    And your solution is to take guns away from everyone but LE? What other parts of the constitution would you like to ignore?

    Here's some numbers for you to contemplate while you plan to usurp the 2nd Amendment:

    There were 1,700 murders by cutting intruments in 2007 alone. OUTLAW KNIVES!!!!! ZOMFG!!!!! ITS FOR THE CHILDREN!! 854 murders from hands and feet. Outlaw hands and feet too, clearly people cannot be trusted with these evil intruments of death and destruction.

    There were almost a total of 62,000 muders between 2007 and 2012 and you are "concerned" about the 402 by CCW holders? One is to many, but please inhabit the real world. You should be more afraid of criminals who don't give a shit about ANY laws than you should be about me and other law-abiding CCW holders.

    Have some fun with numbers and do some research on how many men, women and children have defended their homes from attackers with guns. Let us know how many of those happened in the past 5 years.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012
  5. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    I do not know how representative Texas is of the national statistics, but latest year (2009) report shows 0.15% of Texas CHL holders were convicted of any crimes. There was exactly ONE PERSON convicted of the charge of murder, and the balance of the 0.15% of holders was convicted in over 2 dozen or so other illegal activities.

    Again, not sure what the other states requirements are, but Texas CDL holders must take a 10 – 15 hour class conducted by a Department of Public Safety Officer, and have a reasonably clean history.

    I do not have conviction rates of law enforcement types, but suspect that theirs may be generally in the same range as CHL holders.

    It seems that a reasonable person might conclude that these CDL holders are generally responsible people that do not go around shooting folks.

    TxDPS - CHL Reports and Statistics
     
  6. DLer

    DLer New Member

    You sound like a hysterical loony toon. I'm sure there are plenty of level headed, emotionally balanced, responsible gun owners. Your response definitely indicates to me that you probably aren't one of them.
     
  7. DLer

    DLer New Member

    This sounds like a very sensible approach. It is my understanding that here in Florida you need to just show competency in using your firearm by taking a more generic course http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/acceptable_training_documentation.html
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012
  8. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    This is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. First, the VPC's statistics and numbers have been called into question time and time again. Second, "murder" is a legal term whereby a legal criteria must be defined and met. "Killing" may be a more accurate term. Third, the VPC cites some cases where the right to carry, even if implied is viewed as having a CHL...even still a CHL legal criteria is different in various states with some being rigorous, some "shall issue" and some handed out like candy at Halloween. Fourth, some of the cases cited such as the woman shooting her husband in her back yard have little to do with a carry license...it may shock you to know that in almost every state you can carry a weapon on your private property without a license of any kind. Fifth, the VPC cites arrest statistics in their number, not convictions. I don't know if you know much about the law but if in Texas for example you are involved in a shooting, there is a good chance that you will be arrested and the evidence will go to a grand jury for a "bill" or "no bill". The arrest stands even if no finding of probable cause is discovered to result in prosecution...therefore citing anything less than conviction rates is misleading. Sixth, I noticed several cases that were cited as "pending"...again this is the trouble with citing arrests instead of convictions. It is misleading and implies guilt before the verdict. Seventh, it appears some cases were "involuntary" or "manslaughter" do not meet the same evidence requirements as murder and though a death may have resulted it would be through negligence or some like criteria and not malice. This does not meet the "murder" definition or even come close.

    And last but not least, let's say that 407 people were "murdered" nation wide how does that shape up in the "big picture"? Well let's try a more unbiased source: Gun Control

    Granted some of these figures are old but let's take a gander anyway since the VPC seems to have no qualms with stating 407 "murders" as if they happened last week.

    In 2008 just under 11,000 actual murders took place with firearms. The whole number of murders (knife, club, etc.) was just over 16,000 (note I'm purposely fudging the numbers give or take a couple of hundred because hey, at the point of counting in the thousands what's a hundred here or there?) A 1993 survey found that .5% of U.S. Households or 4,997 potential murders were thwarted by armed victims (that's in a single year). Now I could source more info...and get a lot deeper but I think this is enough to make the following point. Pointing out a few instances where people with CHLs committed violent crimes...even murder and using this as a platform to bash the entire concept is like trying to outlaw cars because people occasionally die due to drunk drivers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012
  9. DLer

    DLer New Member

    I brought up the concealed weapon numbers in response to Bruce who said this
    I questioned how smart it is to let just about anyone have a concealed weapons permit (especially in Florida where it seems you need to just show you know how to fire a gun). That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. What you do in your state is none of my business.
     
  10. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Over 30,000 people were killed in vehicle crashes last year in the United States. Seems a lot more dangerous than licensed gun owners

    I don't know any jurisdiction that will issue a gun permit to someone with no training. My city (gun permits in MA are issued by local police chiefs) requires some sort of formalized training, either from the military, the NRA, or some other legitimate organization.
     
  11. DLer

    DLer New Member

    Or maybe he's one of a growing number of Florida citizens who exercised extremely bad judgement by arming himself, confronting a neighbor's guest, shooting and killing that neighbor's guest in the middle of a family community at 7:20PM and then expecting to walk because of a controversial law that was put on the books in 2005.

    I guess it depends on what you consider proper training. According to this Florida website "any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency in another state" will do Acceptable Training Documentation - Division of Licensing, FDACS
    Contrast that with what another poster says
    According to this "Stand-your-ground laws are frequently criticized and called "shoot first" laws by critics, including the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.[41] In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling, with all but one of those killed unarmed.[42][41] The law's critics argue that Florida's law makes it very difficult to prosecute cases against people who shoot others and then claim self-defense. The shooter can argue they felt threatened, and in most cases, the only witness who could have argued otherwise is the victim who was shot and killed. The Florida law has been used to excuse neighborhood brawls, bar fights, road rage, and even street gang violence.[41] Before passage of the law, Miami police chief John F. Timoney called the law unnecessary and dangerous in that "[w]hether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house, you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."[43][44]
    Stand-your-ground law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now given the number of current cases in Florida where "Stand your Ground" is an issue like GZ or here
    http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/article/311679/28/Widow-says-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-murder
    or here
    Deadly Shooting: Road Rage or Stand Your Ground? - New Port Richey, FL Patch
    a reasonable person might ask....Is the spike in cases of ordinary citizens shooting other citizens and using the "Stand your Ground" law as a defense the result of a poor or misguided personal interpretation of the law, is it the lax training requirements that ordinary citizens are given in Florida?

    What may be a problem in Florida, may not be a problem in other states. But if it is a problem in Florida then it should be a concern of citizens within Florida.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012
  12. 03310151

    03310151 New Member

    Statement by Zimmermans defense attorney, please take with a grain of salt.http://fsblog.s3.amazonaws.com/zimmerman.mp4 Very interesting. Can't wait for the forensic evidence to come out. Keep in mind that my only interest in this case lie in the apparent racial aspect of it. I do not care one way or the other how the verdict goes. My interest is in the larger problem of racial hatred that has made all of us more divisive (in light of our post-racial administration this should be disheartening to all of you too). As someone who began paying attention to things a few years ago, I have noticed this hunt for white racism all the while ignoring the larger black racism towards whites. This laughable national race narrative is starting to crumble as more people "notice things". This is indeed interesting for those of us who live in the real world and carefully observe events and happenings around us. I don't try to make real world happenings fit my dream view of people. I see where my observations and careful review of data take me.YMMV.
     
  13. 03310151

    03310151 New Member

    Baseless attacks my my person gleemed only from relative few posts on here are not a mature adult way to judge people. But since you made it personal by calling me names and indicating that I am not a responsible gun owner shows your own level of class.
    What do you feel about the number of murders by knives? Does that concern you as well? Are you calling for knife training for all? Do you have any answer to the data I presented? Or are you just here to call names for people that don't agree with you?Look, I understand completely that you are very afraid of an inanimate object (gun) but please do not try to assuage your guilt and fear by trying to emasculate the rest of us responsible gun owners. Loony indeed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2012
  14. DLer

    DLer New Member

    I like his new defense attorney's approach, which is to wait and see what evidence that the SA is presenting to support their position and formulate a defense based on that. He is smart not to get caught up in all of the peripheral nonsense that so many people outside of the community are caught up in, which includes making this case about something it's not. This isn't brain surgery.
     
  15. DLer

    DLer New Member

    I said you "sound like" ....that could have been caused by an overreaction to what I was writing, a bad day, not rereading what i wrote to grasp the context of what I was saying. I wasn't calling for anything. Reread what was written, if you can't grasp it I can't help you.
     
  16. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    With that type of flowery writing, you should get a job with NBC, I'm sure they could use some help in doctoring 911 recordings.

    Newsflash for you.....a "neighbor's guest" is capable of assaulting someone.

    That's about all it takes. Firearms safety is not quantum physics....in spite of the media's attempt to demonize them, firearms are very simple pieces of machinery. You don't need a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering to understand how they work.

    Seriously? You're going to use the Brady Campaign (ridiculously biased) and Wikipedia (goes without saying on an academic website) to make your points?

    If the above was a paper a student submitted to me by a student, I'd give it an F.
     
  17. DLer

    DLer New Member

    This is actually pretty funny.
     
  18. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    WAIT WHAT. "Larger black racism towards whites?"

    Could you define the sort of racism you believe is worse from black people against white people?

    For instance, would you say:

    "Employment discrimination by black people against white people is a larger impediment to white people than the employment discrimination by white people is to black people."

    "Use of strong racial slurs is more frequent by blacks against whites than by whites against blacks."

    "Negative stereotyping, where black people assume or expect less desirable attributes in someone because they are white, is more prevalent than negative stereotyping where white people assume or expect less desirable attributes in someone because they are black."

    No?

    And that's just defining your claim, let alone supporting it. And you have a fairly massive extraordinary claim thing going here.
     
  19. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Oh, Bruce, that's almost a spelling flame. You can do better!

    As someone who works in part to get violent shooters off the streets, what do you think of this substantive criticism? From the Wikipedia article DLer quoted, because it describes these criticisms well, darn it:

    "The law's critics argue that Florida's law makes it very difficult to prosecute cases against people who shoot others and then claim self-defense. The shooter can argue they felt threatened, and in most cases, the only witness who could have argued otherwise is the victim who was shot and killed."
     
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    In fairness, right there you're the one trying to apply definitions that are difficult to defend to his claim, and the term for that is "straw man".
     

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