VAE encore and encore !

I don't think there is any issue with VAE up to Bachelor equivalency, no one disputes that. I think the issue is of post graduate equivalency ie take the example of Johnny D and his technicolour degreecoat.

Cheers,

George

 

Lerner: OK. Whatever it is, I guess is a secret.
George: Don't pick on Comrade Enver. He just got banned elsewhere.

 

Here's the most enlightening discussion of VAE that I've seen yet.

After reading this material, I have to say that my opinion is now essentially the same as Gregg DesElms' above. It doesn't look to me like French VAE degrees are equivalent to American university degrees.

While VAE degrees aren't awarded on the basis of a resume, they do appear to be dangerously close to life-experience degrees. It seems that entire degrees are awarded on the basis of presenting a single portfolio to a jury that decides on it in one sitting. There doesn't seem to be any TESC-style attempt to examine the various components of a degree syllabus individually. The whole thing is "holistic" (their word) and seems to be based on descriptions of job tasks.

Here's the strategic highlights:

1.3.3.2 Decree proposals for the procedures concerning the implementation of VAE in higher education...

The first decree proposal concerns educational institutions empowered by the state to confer degrees. These include universities and public institutions of higher education irrespective of the competent ministry, engineering schools and private institutions of higher
education who have the right to confer degrees...

As the educational institutions are autonomous the competent authority within the institutions will determine the final procedure, provided that the general condition, i.e., that only one
request may be made per year for one type of certification and no more that three for three different ones is complied to.

In the internal procedure, the request for validation is sent to the president or head of the institution, who appoints the members of the validation jury that takes the final decision on the case. The jury is composed according to the regulations related to the certification involved, provided that there is a significant representation of qualified professionals in the field and an even distribution of male and female members is adhered to...

The first step in the procedure leading to the assessment, the candidate will prepare a file
according to the form defined by decree of the competent ministry. The jury examines the file and invites the candidate for an interview. It is important to note that this interview should be a dialogue and not a public defence. The final validation can be total or partial. When the final validation is only partial the jury has a prescriptive role. This means it must determine the exact nature of the knowledge and aptitudes in the recommendation and identify and define the missing elements. The jury finally submits its conclusions to the president or Head of the institution who notifies the candidate...

2.1.1 Procedures for certification on the basis of (VAP and) VAE The centre for
permanent learning of the University of Lille, SUDES...

In practice the procedure includes the following steps

Step 1. Information

1. Reception of the candidate (acceuil) at
SUDES: at this stage the candidate is informed of his rights under the existing legal provisions, general information on the VAE procedure, part-time and full-time courses offered by the university, and any other
general information required on educational possibilities at the center for continuing
learning (SUDES).

2. When the candidate confirms his intention
to compile a file, a meeting is arranged with
an appointed conseillier. The conseillier explains the VAE procedure to the candidate and the educational possibilities at the university. The conseillier will remain with the candidate during the complete procedure...

Step 2. Admission

The candidate will prepare a request and include an extensive curriculum vitae with
sufficient information on the kind of experienced gained and at what level. The request will also include a specification of the field and the certificate the candidate would wish to obtain after completing the VAE procedure...

Step 3: Preparing a file...

A candidate prepares a request for validation under the 2002 law. USTL has developed
special VAE (and former VAP) forms for this purpose. These include very detailed descriptions of positions held and tasks
performed and the opportunity to add any relevant proof that will support the claim. In order to present a sound and viable request to the assessment jury, close personal guidance and monitoring of the conseillier takes place. The VAE conseillier decides whether the file
is valid for presentation to the jury. The approach assures that the descriptions included reflect both the candidate’s most telling attainments and the competencies developed. Special attention is paid to the level of intellectual and analytical
thinking and problem solving abilities in relation to the level of the course leading to the required diploma.

Step 4: Assessment

When the file is completed it is sent to an assessment jury for validation...

Once the file is presented, the candidate
is heard. After deliberation, the jury will formulate a recommendation to confer a full or
partial degree/individual certificates. In case the decision is to confer a partial degree the jury is held, under the law of 2002, to provide a transparent advice on what should be done in order for the candidate to obtain a full degree...

2.1.4 Quality Assurance

There is no specific quality assurance system on validation d’aquis procedures in operation at the Universiy of Lille. General administrative quality assurance procedures however do apply. All procedures require the approval of the Conseil de l’Université, composed of a president, vice-presidents and a student representative...

2.1.5 Target groups: foreign applicants

USTL also accepts foreign applicants for the VAE procedures. Generally in cases where
applications are made to the institution all request are sent directly to SUDES for an
assessment. There are no specific procedures developed for this target group: basically the same procedure apply to these applicants, as is the case with candidates trained in the national context. It is up to the candidate to describe his/her working situation, tasks and assignments as clearly as possible. For the foreign applicant this may mean a greater effort as additional socio-cultural contextual information may be required in order to be explicit. The experiences so far have not required the introduction of additional procedures or activities in the
application for certification on the basis of a validation d’aquis.

http://www.nuffic.nl/ice-plar/pdf/FRANKRIJK.pdf

 

Hopefully a few people will bookmark this thread. Not only is it extremely informative, but I'm betting the information will be needed again.
Jack

 

Thanks ever so much, Bill, for the information in your most recent post. It is, sir, a hash-settler.

 

NICHT KORRECT! Sorry

I am sorry to tell you that it is absolutely not accurate.Following your posting, I send an E-mail to Humbolt University in Berlin about the admissibility of a French VAE Degree to enter a Master Program. I get a response from Elke Nuerk from the admissions Office. They accept VAE degrees as exactly equivalent (in that case Maîtrise) as a French "regular" degree.

We have contrary to what was said the confirmation that Germany accepts VAE degrees from French public universities as valid .

Humbolt is the most prestigious East German university and is located in Berlin.

I think it is an important point. I understand that the German author did not misled us voluntarly, of course. Nobody is perfect including a Swiss researcher!


Hoping that it will be of interest for all of you who research of the truth!

 

@ Peaceforall

You like VAE very much, that´s OK. But with a VAE-degree it´s not unproblematically.

Ok, perhaps Humboldt University does.
But most others won´t. That´s a fact.
Every University can decide, if it accepts it or not. The Universities needn´t do it, that´s the problem with the VAE-degrees in Germany.

If you´ve a VAE-doctorate or another VAE-degree, you´re not allowed to put a "PhD." or another VAE-degree behind your name.
You´re not allowed to use those degrees. Perhaps Humboldt University does accept this, but Germany not.
This is a result of the 16 (!) Ministries of Education in Germany. This is a hard fact.
So for Germans the VAE regulation isn´t very interesting. In Germany you´re allowed to use degrees only, if you´ve taken courses and s.o. Sorry!

Also my words:

Please don´t dream too much.
The VAE regulation might be a good thing. But not in Germany.

 

VAE letters

Are you saying that you can't use those letters in Germany? Because there is no restriction like this according to French law.
Pat

 

VAE degree is a ccombination in many times of formal university educcation and experiance.
So maybe german law and i'm not an expert just like some other countries don't accept degrees entierly by experiance.
they may look at degree that is ccombination of professional training and formal university educcation and experiance.

The fact is DT has emploees with VAE degrees, UK honors qualifications as well.

It all depends on the reputation and name of the isuing Institution, and VAE is not on the diplomas.

learner

 

Yes. To be allowed to use University degree letters in Germany, you´ve to earn the degree at a recognized University through taking courses and so on. You´ve to complete a recognized full Undergraduate or Graduate program. Prior learning assessment to get some credits as it accredited Universities do in the US is OK, of course.

But a VAE-degree needn´t be earned by taking courses, it´s not really Higher Education. Yes, in some cases the candidate also has credits from Universities. But that means nothing. If you don´t have any academic credits, you can get a VAE-degree, too.
Work experience and academic work is not the same. Because of this important difference the Ministries of Education don´t allow VAE-degree-holders to use their degrees (the letters) in Germany.

 

Re: VAE letters

Um... don't mean to nitpick... but... um... there's a logical disconnect in what you just wrote. How could French law control, one way or the other, what's done in Germany?

Just askin'

 

I'm sorry, I have not been following this thread. Can you tell me what "DT" refers to and can you substantiate your statement that "DT has employees with VAE degrees" Thanks,
Jack

 

DT stands for Doitsge Telephone or Telecom, I think this is one of the leading or was one leading telecom company in Germany.

One Engineer with french VAE MBA was in the same traning 2 week class with me, there was an international grroup of 18 persons with 6 from DT.
Jorgan's VAE/VAP degree from France, it apears that he was there for certification classes with Alcatel and wile there got MBA.
He already had Graduate certificates in Project and Program management. His engineering degree is from major university in Germany.
His VAE MBA is from Paris Graduate School of Management
He found out about the program from another emploee coworker who also had MSCS via VAE.

 

I think the most important issue is not whether VAE degree can obtain employment posts or not. Indeed, a lot of richmen and famous people, like outstanding artists, who have honorary doctor degrees, can find jobs easily. They even themselves are owners of a business, i.e. employers!

The most important issue here is whether VAE is in the form of a honorary award or not. If one is granted his/her degree based on VAE, what is the difference from obtaining a honorary degree? I think the evaluation criteria seems no difference. Again, honorary degree will not have academic transcript as the same as VAE degree.

 

When I read VAE laws in many instances it talks about qualifications or professional qualificcations.

There are countries were professional qualifications have their own category. I mentioned already many times the UK system and their NVQ - National Vocational Qualifications.

Its more like US degree by portfolio it can confer partual credit toward degree and in such case a person has to take additional courses.
VAE degree can be more practical and professional than honorary degree.
If a panel of jury comprised of university professors review persons lets say for example engineers achievemnts at his work and how this work related learning may be equivalent to university
education, amount of credit that can be awarded for such education and training etc.
In US the aproach is to test and pass examinations, in France one can get the same without taking the test but by evaluation by the professors on the board - jury.

The better the academic standing of the institution the higher is the value of VAE diploma.

Learner

 

Central Office for Foreign Education

The newest University law of Berlin (21st April 2005), which is issued by Berlin’s Ministry of Education, tells the following:
(I try to translate)

This law applies to all Public Universities of Berlin (like Humboldt, which is also a Public University).

This means, if a University falsely accepts you and you earn a recognized Graduate degree, the Ministries of Education can forbid you to use your earned degree in Germany, if substantial conditions were not present. (With a VAE-degree you don’t have any substantial conditions to get into a Graduate program in Germany, because you didn’t have to study to get the VAE-degree, à § 34a, § 35).

In Germany you´re only allowed to use foreign degrees (and the degree letters), if the University is accredited by its home country´s Ministry of Education or by Royal Charter, if the degree program is accredited and if the degree was based on a recognized study program. Other foreign University degrees are not recognized in Germany.

To get into doctoral programs the degree must have been earned by Graduate studies.
(Here’s only the doctoral programs as further studies discussed, because in Germany they haven’t already Bachelor/Master/Doctoral programs at all Universities like in the US, the older German system is “Diplom” or “Magister” (equivalent to Master), then doctoral studies; without Bachelor degree)



As you all can see a VAE-degree aren´t accepted by recognized Universities in Germany for further studies, because it’s not really Higher Education, as I’ve always said. You don’t have to study to get a VAE-degree. So in Germany they don’t accept a VAE-degree as an equivalent to a regular study in Higher Education. VAE is French law, not German. The thought of VAE is to help workers with lots of experience to be as well as accepted as academics.

Some things come clear to me know, why Peaceforall posts incorrect information.

The University co-workers don’t know anything about VAE, but it’s not important for them.
If you ask University co-workers, if you can get into a Graduate program, if you’ve a recognized University degree, the answer is: yes. In most cases it’s correct. But in Germany some things are different than in other countries.

If you want to study at a University in Germany with a foreign degree, you’ve to fill out an application form, to send in original certificates and transcripts, CV and so on. Then the University sends these documents to the Central Office for Foreign Education.
They examine, if the foreign degree is equivalent to a University degree in Germany, e.g. study contents are examined. If it’s not equivalent, you can’t get into Graduate programs. With the VAE-degree you don’t get transcripts, there’s no study content.
It’s not possible to evaluate VAE-degrees as equivalent to German University degrees, that you always only can get, if you’ve completed recognized study programs. In Germany there’s no VAE. So there’s no equivalent and it can’t be accepted for further studies.
Without studies in Higher Education you can’t get into Graduate programs.

If you’ve any specific questions about recognition of foreign degrees in Germany, please don’t ask only the Universities, please contact directly the Central Office for Foreign Education (ZAB, Bonn):
[email protected]
http://www.kmk.org/zab/home.htm (also in English)

I think, we can stop this discussion now.

Bob

 

Oh, let's not. Let me make sure I understand this:

BobMaulk: "In Germany you´re only allowed to use foreign degrees (and the degree letters), if the University is accredited by its home country´s Ministry of Education or by Royal Charter, if the degree program is accredited and if the degree was based on a recognized study program. Other foreign University degrees are not recognized in Germany."

So, if one were to, say, have a degree from an unrecognized Danish university, one could not use the degree title and initials, but if that degree came from, say, an accredited U.S. school, that would be fine.

Doubly bad, it would seem, would be a degree from a neighboring unrecognized school in Denmark that was awarded without a course of study, say one ostensibly awarded for prior publications. Slam, slam.....Ouch!

"Deutschland uber Knightsbridge," that's what I always say....

 

You are partially right and totally wrong!

I am bemused that, for ideological reasons, intelligent people have sometimes very bad reasoning. The text is correct, I verified . However the interpretation on the French VAE is totally false.

As proven by Humbolt University, who officially accepts VAE degrees for graduate studies admissionsand confirmed by the German Embassy. French VAE degrees from a public university are considered as qualifying degrees by the German authorities because they are considered by the country of origin (France) as a regular degree generating ECTS. Because of Europe and the Bologna declaration, Germany, I was said, has to accept it.

Why do you negate the obvious ? I get (Humbolt university) and some readers get letters or messages stating that VAE degree qualify to enter into Graduate studies in public German universities.

Do you have any other message from any German university stating the contrary?(i.e. Maîtrise from a French university using the VAE procedure is not accetable as a pre-requisite ).

Do not have dear German friend the "Bunker attitude", the wall of Berlin is over, try to get finally a government, the Vordiplom will fade away with the 3/5/8 European system and see the truth." Ne prennez pas vos désirs pour des réalités"

It is not because you criticize(probably rightly) the VAE that it means that it is not accepted in Germany. I proved, I think, that it is.

Swiss is by defition neutral and does not want to be part of another (100+)Franco-German war...

 

Yeah, that´s right.

ECTS? Where´re the credits with a VAE-degree? There´re no credits, nothing to transfer.

No. They´ve only to accept degrees of Higher Education, not life-experience degrees.

I´ve never seen!

Bob

 

The VAE is not a university, therefore under Oregon law it is largely irrelevant. As others have pointed out, the question is what college or university issues the degree, and the legal status of that issuing entity.

We usually refer such questions to AACRAO because the commission we work for has expressly stated in rule that we can rely on an AACRAO evaluation. We also use other evaluators on occasion, mainly ECE of Wisconsin and Silny of Florida. We have used a couple of others, Ed Consultants of Delaware being one. We often use two on complex cases, as we did recently with a Vietnamese school. We are not obligated to follow their advice because they may consider an entity acceptable that still does not meet the standards of Oregon law.

For example, Oregon law requires that all degrees issued by a non-U.S. provider be legal for use (including professional licensure) in the nation of origin on the same basis as degrees issued by other colleges in that nation. Many so-called "colleges" can't meet this basic standard.

The problem that the Robert de Sorbon object faces is that it is not a French college, it is a degree supplier owned by a guy who lives in Florida (though I think the hurricane went over his house recently). The school's "address" is a mailbox place just down the street in Florida. This is not a hard one to figure out. Old news.