VAE encore and encore !

Re: Re: Number of VAE Degrees by French Public Universities

Merci for your kind comments.

CNAM:
For the CNAM the site is
http://www.cnam.fr/ecole-ingenieurs/Main/main.php?titre1=ecole&titre2=presentation


I found also this site for Lorraine public universities a French Eastern Province: In 2003 (Beginning) 443 full degrees through VAE in Lorraine.
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:NXI1cWOLifwJ:[url]www.inffolor.org/site_pro_vae/PDF/BilanVAE2003_diffusion.pdf+nombre+de+VAE+attribu%C3%A9es&hl=fr[/url]




For Toulouse University (South) 208 VAE requests in 2003 37 full degrees, 51 Credits.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:4ZCBpg55yPkJ:[url]www.univ-paris5.fr/IMG/ppt/Universit__Toulouse_1_.ppt+nombre+de+VAE++en+france&hl=fr[/url]
etc. etc.

I thank youagain for your remarks. It is interesting .The VAE is growing and growing following the media attention.

 

Re: Number of VAE Degrees by French Public Universities

Has anyone ever denied the reality of "the VAE" in France?

I still don't understand what significance that has to the English speaking participants here on Degreeinfo.

I guess that the implied conclusion is that individuals and institutions outside France should accept degrees awarded by (ostensibly) French institutions employing "the VAE".

But whether that's wise or not would seem to depend on the nature of the school that granted "the VAE" and on the details of how "the VAE" was awarded.

If "the VAE" was awarded by a recognized French university that's using a sound and credible method of assessing prior learning, and if there is some trustworthy external verification of both of those things (accreditation equivalence), then I don't see any problem with American institutions accepting it.

Whether they will or not in real life is a different question that's hard to answer. If an American employer just specifies a generic degree in its job specs (typically a bachelors), a degree from a conventional French state university would probably be fine, "VAE" or no "VAE". But in selective graduate school admissions where selections committees are very interested in transcripts that show what applicants have studied, it's more difficult to say if "the VAE" would work.

And none of that imples that "the VAE" awarded by unaccredited things like Sorbon would, or should, be accepted just because they are (maybe) French institutions waving around "the VAE".

Credible accredited American schools award prior learning credit too, that's accepted lots of places. But that doesn't imply that people need to accept life-experience degrees from degree mills.

 

Re: Re: Number of VAE Degrees by French Public Universities

I thank Mr. Grayson, thatI respect as a senior member. He is the perfect example of what I said in my first post on this thread. He reacts strongly and associates immediately Sorbon to the VAE. (It demonstrates that the other forum blog is accurate).

However it seems that the VAE, interests the participants of degreeinfo. Please see the number of postings/threads, Do you thing it is not "Significant"?

The initial Subject (question) was: Should US Universities accept VAE Degrees from public universities? (There are no "accreditation" in France).

The participants seem to follow several schools of thinking:

-One school represented by our distiguished moderator who say just no.

-One represented by NACES who seems to say: Yes for French, not for foreign.

- Another variance is the one "previously" held by "Mineralhh" who said "Who cares? There are in fact no full diploma awarded anyhow through the VAE in France by public universities." He seems (I hope) to be convinced by my research that shows that many full VAE diplomas were and are awarded (see above).

-The last one, that I am inclined follow. Yes they should accept it as it is a full regular degree from a legitimate foreign university.

I still think it is significant, as the VAE is new process (2003 first year) growing and spreads to 40 countries that accept VAE credits for ECTS or Erasmus. (including UK, Irish students). american PLA as said by the moderator is different as it does not grant full degrees.

Regards, I understrand that people can have civilized different views and I respect all of them.

Dear Unkle Janko, Pardo I made a mistake about the drawing on Dreyfus. It was from Caran d'Ache not Daumier.

 

Re: Re: Re: Number of VAE Degrees by French Public Universities

If VAE is legally accepted in France, that will be fine in this country but it is very hard to convince others to accept it.

Even though the VAE degree is granted by public universities in France, it seems to be honorary award only. I think those granted degree by VAE do not have transcript with grades and marks of the subjects earned from their working life. Any GPA calculation? How to determine graduates' classification by average mark?

If there is no valid transcript with grades and GPA for each subject, it is very easy to be identified by academic institutions and employers! Therefore, even if VAE degree is valid, it seems to be a kind of honorary award only if it can be easily identified!!

 

Mais Non !!!

Oh my god ! Such a difference of culture! The French Law (not the American of course) says that VAE degrees bears the same name and is the same degree. It is against the French Law to make any difference. It is "au nom de l'état". It is not at all honorary . It is difficult procedure where you have to prove a lot and it follows a tough regulated investigation. The degree is awarded through a Jury of university Professors. It shows that what you have learned through work is at least equivalent to the knowledge accumulated through classical studies at a university A VAE degree opens admission to a higher university degree.

It is not Honorary at all ! Europe has honoris causa degree for that

Moreover as you know in Europe, there is no transcripts as there no courses for Ph.D. Did employer often ask for transcripts in the USA ? In Europe quasi never.

I can see that the French VAE, contrary to what it is often said, is a real revolution (compared to PLA) ifor the American minds. I do not see it accepted well now in the US...but my theory is that it will slowly get recognition and that some US accredited universities will probably follow one day the same prodedure.

Sincerely yours,hoping I did not hurt the feelings of anybody.

 

Re: Re: Re: Number of VAE Degrees by French Public Universities

Of course there is accreditation in France.

The word 'accreditation' means external quality assurance. It's still accreditation, even if a government ministry does it.

If there's no such thing as external quality assurance in France, then why should anyone accept degrees granted by any French institution that they are unfamiliar with? What assurance do people have that the institution isn't a mill?

Getting back to your question, US universities should accept VAE degrees" (whatever that means) IF those French "VAE degrees" are equivalent to what the US institution is requiring by way of domestic degrees.

I suppose the only way to determine that equivalence is to be clear about the academic credibility of both the institution that awarded the degree and the process that was used to award the VAE credit.

 

OK, here's what appears to be the accreditor of public higher education institutions in France:

Comité National d' Évaluation des établissements publics à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel (CNE),
43 Rue de la Procession, Paris, 75015
Mr Bruno Curvale, Fabrice HÉNARD, Evaluation co-ordinator, Tel + 33 1 55 55 78 42 Fax + 33 1 55 55 69 94 e-mail: [email protected]
[email protected] |

http://www.cne-evaluation.fr

This organization apparently was set up and funded by the French government. It conducts QAA-style quality audits and publishes reports on its findings. Unfortunately, it's remit only extends to public higher education institutions, and not to private ones.

Here's an English language explanation of what they do (site visits etc.).

http://www.cne-evaluation.fr/versions/anglais.htm

I guess that I'm inclined to say that if a French higher education insitution passes this organization's scrutiny AND if the details of the VAE process conform to the specifics of what an American institution is looking for in a degree, I'd favor the American school accepting the French degree.

 

Yes indeed, a VAE-degree is a kind of an honorary degree.
So in Germany, also a member of the European Union, you´re not allowed to use those degrees (also not of recognized public universities). To get a VAE-degree you don´t have to take classes and s.o. Thatswhy in Germany you aren´t able to get into Graduate programs after getting a Maîtrisse (equivalent to Bachelor).
VAE isn´t bad for someone, who´s a lot of experience.
But for further studies in Higher Education it´s worthless.

 

Re: Mais Non !!!

Not a chance in hell. You're going too far, now... as nearly all pro-VAE types eventually do when they're making these arguments. You're confusing work experience with true, academic education. Education's purpose is not always (and should not always be) vocational or career preparation or, worse, mere job training. That being the case, no amount of vocational, career or mere job experience could possibly translate into a full academic degree... which is as it should be. The acquisition of knowledge through formal, academic education is far different from on-the-job experience... which is also as it should be. It's no accident that one of the alternative definitions of "academic" is "hypothetical or theoretical and not expected to produce an immediate or practical result." Not only should education be more than just "how to;" but "how to" should be a mere by-product.

The U.S. higher education system has it right. The French, if they believe that entire academic degrees may be earned through the VAE construct, have it wrong. The U.S. will never buy-in to the French approach... probably on more than just VAE, but now I digress. Those pro-VAE for entire degrees are in a different paradigm altogether; and they refuse to see or understand that.

No one's "feelings" are usually hurt by discussions like this; but those of us who have endured seemingly endless hounding -- some of it extreme, outrageous and even abusive -- from those pro-VAE who keep trying and trying and trying to convince us of its virtues find it tedious... and said tediousness quickly becomes irritating.

Clearly the French -- or at least those among them who are pro-VAE for an entire degree -- see education differently than those in the U.S. Those pro-VAE for entire degrees feel frustration because they can't seem to get anyone in the U.S. to buy-in to their notions. Until those pro-VAE for entire degrees fully understand and appreciate what a true academic education means (as opposed to mere career prep) in the U.S., this will be a never-ending battle with no resolution in sight.

I'm giving... well... not the two minute warning, but maybe more like the ten minute warning (if there even were such a thing) on this thread, generally. The last time this subject got out of hand around here it was because the pro-VAE person just kept on hammering at the same points, over and over again, ignoring opinions of others and beginning all his sentences with either an insult or the word "but..." and then he ran roughshod over whatever comments or opinions he was countering. That seems to be the way those who are pro-VAE for entire degrees tend to fight. I realize you're not doing that yet, Peaceforall, but you're kinda' starting, already, to, effectively, do the "but..." thing.

The situation is what it is. VAE, as the French are doing it, will never happen in the U.S. Mark my words. Trying to convince everyone of its merits here will not -- not ever -- change that. Never. We're now starting to hear the very same arguments we've always heard. It gets us nowhere.

I'm sorry I seem so impatient, but I've never -- and I stress the word never -- seen a VAE discussion get much further than this one has without it starting to decay, degrade -- sometimes even insult -- and then pretty much waste everyone's time. So let's get some truly new information about the subject into this thread, or let's just please let it dissolve into history, where it probably belongs... shall we?

 

Thanks, Bob, for getting straight to the heart of the matter.

Maybe (oh, oh) this thread could be ended by mutual agreement. Has everybody had their say? Are there final arguments or evidence to be posted?

Once that's done, why don't we all just sort of sign off on the thread and let it stand, then, as a complete discussion of the issue as of 22 October. If new evidence comes up later, why not start a newly dated thread to discuss just that evidence?

Hyperrheics among us please note that I am NOT asking mods to close the thread, NOR am I requesting censorship of anything posted on it thus far.

Peace, ain't it wonderful.

 

End of the thread ?

I think that the moderator could be right. It could be time to close the thread on the French VAE.

The funny thing is that he is ostensibly "liberal", like me, but our view differs totally. To give the "10 minutes warning", as this discussion was going relatively politely, is "n'est pas vraiement de gauche" i.e.not really liberal as our common philosophy is for polite exchange of ideas. However he is the boss and has much more experience.

If hewe close, I think we can all agree on four points which are news for many readers:

1) French VAE goes up to a full degree.

2) Most importantly, it is fully applied in France by public universities(let's "de- desorbonized it") and a large number (4,000) of full degrees have been already granted by them.

3) VAE goes much further than the US "PLA".

4) It is still divises as it ignites passions and made an affirmed liberal a supporter of "closeon.com" instead of moveon.org. It make him thinks that the slipage and insults of previous forums (where I was not a part) were only comming from one side (i.e.the adversaries to his respectable academic views).

Threfore I, respectuously, am not opposed to the closing of this thread as I do not want to be expelled of this interested forum, "Fair and Balanced" like your Fox News (??)

What should we talk about now ? I have a subject: The notion of "European Quality Control" instead of global accreditation contained on the Bologna, Prague, Bergen, Berlin declaration. Is it OK or still too divisive or too complicated as you probably know 40 countries switched to the 3/5/8 system ?

Amitiés du Lac,

 

I'm done. A revedere.

 

Re: End of the thread ?

I'm not threatening to close the thread... though I'm also not saying that that couldn't happen. I'm merely suggesting that there might be no point in revisting all those tired old pro-VAE arguments that have so many times been made here... often to the point of ridiculousness and abuse. I'm suggesting that if there isn't really anything new to be added to this discussion, then we should probably just let the thread die a natural death and slip into history. If you or anyone has anything new to add, then by all means add it. I don't particularly care if this thread goes on forever as long as it's just not the same ol' same ol' that inevitably seems to lead to craziness. I don't know how much clearer I could have been about that.

Liberals disagree all the time. And, anyway... let's not make this about me... or about you, either.

See what I just wrote above.

No one's closing any threads -- at least not yet -- nor "expelling" anyone. And this thread's not about the FOX NEWS CHANNEL, is it.

Your politeness and respect have a disingenuous ring... as is often the case with those who are pro-VAE for entire degrees who try to sell same here. If you don't want to, as you put it, "be expelled," then don't play it this way. If you have something new about VAE to post, then please post it. If not, then don't... and, if that's the case, then this thread will take care of itself without anyone having to close it.

Do you have anything more to add regarding the legitimacy -- or lack thereof -- of VAE? It's that on which you really should be concentrating... at least in this thread.

 

But it's already possible to earn entire degrees by prior learning assessment here in the United States. It's the familiar 'BA in 4 Weeks' concept. I've long been a skeptic about the credibility of the mechanism, but I don't really argue with the concept.

So I don't think that I'd oppose the French doing it either, again provided that the assessments are done in a credible manner by reliable institutions.

It seems to me that there are (at least) two issues here.

First there's 'VAE' (whatever that really is in practice). Second, there are the institutions that claim to use it.

The mills try to confuse the two. If anyone questions schools like Robert de Sorbon, that's interpreted as if it were criticism of the VAE concept. So defense of VAE (it's in the Code de France, public universities use it) has been presented as if it was a defense of the questionable schools. Of course that's ridiculous.

My response is to try to separate the degree-mill issue from the VAE issue. That's why I always get back to institutional credibility, which seems to me to be the real issue in these mill-cases.

But even if places like Sorbon are nothing more than degree mills trying to confuse naive Anglophones, that wouldn't necessarily mean that VAE should be rejected, provided that it's being done properly by parties who can be trusted.

I don't really know how the French assess prior learning or what the VAE 'juries' actually do.

If they just award life experience degrees based on their looking at years of work experience on resumes, then I'm not impressed.

But if they credibly assess a candidate's grasp of the university syllabus through portfolios and examinations, then VAE wouldn't seem to be very much different than what Thomas Edison State College is already doing. (Still not very impressive perhaps, but more arguably serviceable.)

So it seems to me that once we move beyond all the degree-mill noise, everything revolves around the technical details of the VAE process itself.

 

Re: End of the thread ?

If there is NO academic transcript attached at the degree from VAE, it is very difficult to convince it is an academic degree award but in the form of honorary! I am not concerning which univerisity from which country e.g. Harvard of USA or Ecole of France ... etc is offering degree by VAE but the way of evaluation for conferring the VAE degree is the same as honorary degree award (i.e. by life experience and contribution to the society.) It is NO difference except the degree diploma award includes the word of honorary or not!

 

Re: Re: End of the thread ?

If there is no transcript for research doctorates (apart from "Enrolled on such and such a date", "Continued Enrolment" "Doctorate Awarded" etc) in some countries such as the UK and Australia, do you consider it to be an honourary degree?

Do you consider a PhD by publication to be an honourary degree?

 

If by "entire degree" it is meant that a whole degree is awarded for life experience without an analysis being done on knowledge acquired at an individual class level that would typically be required to earn that degree in a more traditional manner then I would question the validity of the process and the validity of the resulting degree. I assumed that the VAE degrees would not be that type of process.

 

So how will wES or ECE evaluate the VAE degree from University of Paris?

Learner

 

Sheesh. Why don't you ask them???

 

Because they alway send the same standard reply.
They won't provide evaluation without proper process, filing application form and sending the diplomas with related dosuments.

I don't have one and never went to any Franche school.