Unaccredited Religious degree

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Randell1234, Dec 29, 2011.

  1. AdjunctInstructor

    AdjunctInstructor New Member

    "These associations in themselves should cause people to reconsider before enrolling with Mac Lynn’s and Muhammad Wolfgang Schmidt’s brainchild." Now you have just presented your argument. Alas! No question here. Alert, your intent was always apparent.
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the correction, GeneralSnus. I was wrong -- again. Certainly, VIU belonged on the list as unaccredited, until 2008. But not today. I have read postings - by a VIU insider - that the University has asked more than once to be removed from the list, but the ODA has shown no sign of willingness.

    The trouble with being on the ODA list is - that it gets aggregated into other lists, which are sometimes headed "degree mills and unaccredited schools" and lump every entry into one uncomplimentary category. I've seen VIU on a recent "Fraud-watch" type of list and also a private-sector resume-screener's list. These folks tend take Bear/Ezell (1998), ODA and other available lists and create their own monster. It's likely even if VIU succeeded with the ODA that its name would still appear on other lists.

    That ten years of unaccredited operation will still haunt VIU, I guess. Not sure if that's fair, although Oregon can view the pre-2008 degrees as it wishes. It seems the best remedy is to re-name the school on accreditation. SCUPS operated as an unaccredited school - although it was State-approved - for almost 30 years. It was re-named as Cal. Southern and subsequently accredited by DETC. Other schools, including Barrington (now U. of Atlanta) and Pacific Western (now California Miramar) have successfully avoided being on "lists" after accreditation by re-naming as part of their re-branding.

    Maybe VIU should consider a name-change, although I don't think it should have to....

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2012
  3. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It isn't just that several Nations faculty claim degrees from schools that some of us might think of as mills. It's that in at least one instance, the individual appears to be the proprietor.

    That situation raises questions about Nations discernment, both academically and ethically.
  4. AdjunctInstructor

    AdjunctInstructor New Member

    What are the ethical and academic questions? Please be more specific.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2012
  5. AdjunctInstructor

    AdjunctInstructor New Member


    Please disregard my last posting. After reviewing several of your postings I am aware of your position and I do not need to go back and forth you. NationsUniversity and Dr. Mac Lynn are established and quite ethical. I did find your views and assumptions concerning the relationship between DL and fundamentalist protestants interesting. However, as time goes along I believe liberals, Catholics, and all the "others" including the ATS accrediting body will embrace DL . Eventually there will be no significant difference.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2012
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Assuming for the sake of argument that some of the schools that Alert listed aren't just unaccredited but are indeed mills (it's probably a pretty good assumption in my opinion)...

    Then if the people in charge at Nations can't distinguish between mills and more credible schools, that would seem to suggest a problem with academic discernment.

    And if they can distinguish but simply don't care whether or not their professors boast sham-degrees or even if they operate their own personal mills, then that would seem to suggest a problem with ethical discernment.

    I don't think that these problems are necessarily fatal or anything, but I do think that they are something that Nations needs to take a look at.
    Helpful2013 likes this.
  7. AdjunctInstructor

    AdjunctInstructor New Member

    First off, lets be clear as to if you are justified in using the plural. You can only legitimately argue for one standing faculty member with an unaccredited degree. Besides the accrediting body is in possession of all the information on our faculty. Surely, you do not believe that you are more cognizant of NationsUniversity's ethical standards than the accrediting body we are working with? Oh I forgot you missed the contributing faculty member holding a degree from "Theological University of America".

    There is accreditation standards and policies that may disqualify any faculty member without an accredited degree . However, until our onsite visit and evaluation is completed we will not know how that will turn out. As far as the faculty credentials I do not handle that area, therefore, I cannot speak much on that other than my own opinion.

    My own view is that you have a dislike for Muhammad Wolfgang G. A. Schmidt, Ph.D. and have allowed that dislike to spill over onto the highly ethical Dr. Mac Lynn. Perhaps your opinion is driven by much deeper factors, who knows?. Every one has an opinion and you are certainly entitled to your own. However, opinions usually have limited consequences, particularly, in situations such as this one.

    Actually, you have not presented anything with substance that supports your cloaked attack concerning NU's administrations ethical "discernment". I believe it is foolish for me to engage with you. Reason being you have been repeating the same old worn out attack for several years on several forums. There is a pretty good chance NationsUniversity will gain accreditation. I would not be surprised if that disappoints you. However, just as your opinion has no consequence, your disappointment will have no consequence.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2012
  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Thought I provide a perspective:
    Nations is an unaccredited Christian school, and it's teachers are VOLUNTEERS. So one would expect it to have difficulty attracting academic stars. Having said that:

    1) Miles Woods, program director with "just a Master's" - happens all the time at smaller accredited schools.
    2) Miles Calvin was known as North around here. He's a part-time chaplain, is somewhat ecclesiastically indifferentiate, and had a fight with Uncle Janko. Nevertheless, his ACCS doctorate is accredited (a fact the ever-scrupulous Uncle never failed to note). As volunteers go, this counts as an asset.
    3) Muhammad Schmidt, millist, episcopus vagans and a huge douche (well-documented here). OTOH, has accredited and legitimate PhD and Habilitation from Univerzitat Frei Berlin (sp?). Developed a course and donated some money. NU may have held their noses in exchange for work provided.
    4) William Hayden, D.A. (Music), Ball State University. 'Nuff said.
    5) Alan Jang, CPU. Borderline diploma mill. I'll grant you this one.
    6) Mac Lynn, S.T.D. from San Francisco Theological Seminary. 'Nuff said.

    I've frankly seen accredited (admittedly not "very fine") schools with similar faculty lists. And - they have more people with accredited degrees. For what they are, they're doing fine.
  9. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

  10. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    In my own opinion, when it comes to matters of unaccredited schools the burden of proof lies with the school. That's the whole purpose of accreditation. Having one known (I guess) faculty member does not guarrantee the overall quality of the school and it's educational product. Nations remains unaccredited and the quality will ALWAYS remain in doubt until it becomes accredited by some legitimate entity. Personally I hope that it succeeds in its accreditation efforts but until that time the questions will remain. If it actually fails in its attempts then the shadow will darken.
  11. Aloy

    Aloy New Member

    Just like to point out that it is actually only 'free' to EU citizens.

  12. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Nope; used to be free for everyone. I believe this is no longer the case. Maybe they also would not accept North Americans, since this is joint program with University of British Columbia. I do not know as I am not one, technically, yet.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2012
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yes, and part of the burden is recruiting credentialed faculty, again, volunteers. Arguably Nations is so good at it that cherry picked list of bad guys from their roster consists of six guys with accredited degrees and only one without. Yay Nations!
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    OK, that's good (I misunderstood). However, my overall point remains the same.
  15. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Actually, five of the six appear to have unaccredited degrees. The exception is Degreeinfo's former participant 'North' with his degree from ACCS. The school lost its accreditation (for financial reasons?) after North had graduated.

    It's true that all but one of them appear to have accredited degrees as well as unaccredited ones. And there's nothing wrong, in and of itself, in having an unaccredited degree. I've been praising unaccredited programs that I like for years.

    My concern is that at least one and probably more of these schools aren't just unaccredited, they appear to be flat-out mills. As a school's credibility declines, one reaches a point where claiming a degree from that school starts to look like dishonesty. And operating such a doubtful school of one's own only compounds the problem.

    I'm definitely NOT trying to dismiss or discredit Nations here. What I am saying is that if Mr. Lynn is as spotlessly ethical as everyone seems to suggest, then he might want to take a look at this.
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    OK, so for the benefit of those of us who don't want to do our homework (me especially) maybe the six people and their degrees can be listed because it seems that they have unaccredited degrees and accredited degrees and whatever. So someone has an accredited Masters but an unaccredited doctorate, or what? Let's get specific.
  17. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    Sorry but I see people with degrees from University of Arkansas, Vanderbilt University, Boston College, etc. What am I missing?
    NationsUniversity - Tuition-free Online Christian Education - Faculty
  18. bass4art

    bass4art New Member

    why are we arguing such stupidity here, let me remind you, for those who come from a Strong Believing Christian Back, that we look the Apostles, who were there in Jesus Christ ministry here on earth, and as well at the day of resurrection. The Scriptures says "study to make thy approve" it does not say to study to make thy self approved by the government.

    As for those who care about accreditation, let me remind you under the Constitution of the United State of America this.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    And so even though I am a strong believing Christian and a Constitutional Libertarian, who did study history of America and took many Political Science courses at the State College that I had gotten my undergraduate degree from.

    Accreditation is a total volunteering system in this country for all education from elementary to college level to help develop standard for teaching and instruction for each educational institution to make sure they maintain the standards.

    But here is where I have the problem is in studying the history of Education in this country, I could argue, when the government steps into the field of education, and tries takes Control of how it is taught and force certain test upon each local education institution, there a lot that is taken away that was there that was strong, that was once consider the best education in the world that the rest of the world look up to.

    For instance, standardize test written by the test maker, who have no clue what is to teach in a class room nor have any idea of what I subject content should be in course, when politician like New York state Governor Cuomo, even that lousy education program that the Bush administration added to the education program in this program no child left behind, politician who have no real experience in the classroom nor on any of the educational subject matter that is being taught in our schools try to force a test that is neither true to the subject matter nor to the learning or educational approached of schools in each of communities. So politician stay our of education, give it back to our local communities, and you will see our education system become the envy of the world like it was of 50-60 years ago.

    Let teachers teach, do not bombard them with your stamp. we are loosing good people who can be great teacher to help turn around our nation again, to be were it was over 50-60 years, and let me remind you accreditation agencies did not start appearing in this country real until the late 1920's and early 1930's.

    As for religious degrees, I am in favor of a strict education unaccredited degree verses, an accredited religious degree from a bible school or seminary that is recognized by the US department of Education. And also the only time in ministry were it is required to have an accredited seminary is when one is dealing with the government like the military or V.A chaplaincy, but otherwise it is not necessary to have an accredited Masters of Divinity nor a Masters of Religious Arts or anything that has to deal with one religious study, and anyway, the only courses that the government can even stipulate an emphasize in even in a accredited seminary program or bible program are the non religious courses like English, Math, History, but they still can not take courses like that on biblical studies, for the government still have to abide by our constitution that the separation of church and state must stay there as the government represents us the people of the United States.

    I do have a Bachelor of Arts in Music and History from a SUNY school in New York State, and a Masters of Education from American Intercontinental University, I also did attend Alliance Theological Seminary in Nyack New York which is accredited by ATS, and since it is accredited it can be apart of the federal loan program, which acts like a carot to many institutions to adapt what the government wants even if what the government wants is either good or bad for the present and prospective students.

    I have applied myself to Nations University, and I have found what I am learning is more deep for me for as a Christian then what I had experience before, I would bet on anyone who graduates from Nations University be able to defend there faith in any debate with any theological who through there studies at these accredited seminaries and bible schools, tend to deny a lot of things that are in orthodox or true Christianity that teaches Christ Jesus was God and Man at the same time, and only through him can salvation be achieve.

    So in answering your debate, here as Patrick would give be liberty or give me death especially when it come to my religious faith and convictions, so here is what I say I have no problem with the government saying what should be taught in English, History or Math, but Government stay out of my religious rights, that is why the constitution was written to protect from the government trying to control us in our thought using our religion to do so.

    So that being said. I am very happy with what I learning at Nations University, and if they are standing the Gospel Message of Hope, Love and Charity, that is only found in Christ Jesus then I support them either way, even if they do not get accreditation, but I am also impressed with DETC in allow Nations to go for accreditation, and it is a long process, shows the strict standards that Nations as set for itself, and it is drawn from the Church of Christ tradition of saying such, which is stonewell-cambellite grouping of Christian Churches.

    There are many many good ministers and preacher that receive there training from unaccredited institutions so stop judging an institution that is doing what it see fit to accomplish in spreading the Kingdom of God, and give strong bible based courses in helping with such. So enough said and God bless.

  19. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Well yes. The school took some adjuncts (on volunteer basis) who also have unaccredited degrees. And, well, one guy with lengthy and impressive resume (and real degrees) who, if you search the gutters of the Internet, turns out to be a pathological mill and fake church operator. Sorry, but this kind of thing happens with accredited universities ALL-THE-TIME.
  20. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Actually, yes there are a number of examples over the years of people with unaccredited degrees on top of accredited degrees at accredited universities. Often strange and almost inexplicable at times as in the fact that they had a perfectly credible doctorate and added one from unaccredited schools of varying quality. In some cases, they had accredited Masters and added unaccredited doctorates.

    In the terms of the list, only one of them had an unaccredited degree as a credential (Jang whose PhD comes from Columbia Pacific University) and there is another on the list who is Consulting Faculty with a degree from Theological University of America. Since ACCS was accredited that degree remains accredited even if the institution lost accreditation. The others have accredited degrees though as I recall Lynn has an Honorary degree from International University and Hayden added a Trinity (unaccredited) degree to a DA from Ball State. The list of faculty includes people with doctorates from Vanderbilt, University of Iowa (Church History), Baylor, Illif and others.

    Schmidt is an "interesting" character but is simply listed as a contributing faculty member (developed a course). How many other accredited schools have faculty with interesting or colorful and strange backgrounds? A lot. The guy has a doctorate from a German University that is credible.

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