The REAL Steve Levicoff???

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Steve Levicoff, Mar 10, 2017.

  1. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Right. They shouldn't. But they do - by the millions. On both sides, it appears. Guess I don't get to go to that cookout ...
  2. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be insulting. But, your answer reeks of privilege. You're a man (top dog) of the dominant ethnic group (European) in this country. You have the luxury of not having to think about anything you don't want to think about. You can remain as naive as you want. I don't have that luxury.

    And just because race isn't an issue for you doesn't mean it's not an issue for anyone else. It is. I can't get away from it no matter how hard I try. Somebody (usually white) will always find a way to bring it up or work it into a conversation. Always. I couldn't even rent my new apartment without answering a Black Lives Matter question after all the papers were signed (Why is "All lives matter" offensive? And, is it offensive to all Black people?").

    So, hurrah for you, Steve, that you don't have to walk around being reminded every day about your ethnicity. But, that's not everyone's reality and you shouldn't be so dismissive.

    Black Americans are not a monolithic group and what I say here about what "we" think is generalized. Generally speaking, we don't like it when people who are part Black ignore our community until they need us or it's trendy/cool or in some other way beneficial to them to be associated with us - and all of a sudden they're Black. That's the issue.

    You see my picture. Even though I have European, Asian, and Native American heritage do you really think I could get away with calling myself anything but Black here in the USA? Be honest. I know I wouldn't, LOL. And, that's part of the problem. The one-drop rule doesn't work in reverse. I should be able to say I'm European or Asian and have nobody bat an eye. But, that won't happen because, again, the one-drop rule only works in one direction. We can't play the Uno reverse card, LOL.

    I personally feel like if everybody can't identify how they want to identify and it not be a problem, then nobody can do it. If I can't have it, you can't either. :D Yes, it's petty and I will own it. But, it's how I feel and I can't help it. America is not ready to let go of the one-drop rule. The country seems ready to accept a half-white person saying they're white now, but only if that person looks white or is very successful. The rest of us are still held to it. And that's the ugly truth.

    White people made the rule, so it is white people who are going to have to dismantle it. It's not fair to expect the historically oppressed class to dismantle a rigged system they didn't build or implement. The people who built it have to take responsibility for it and dismantle it themselves. It's not our job nor our duty.
    nosborne48 likes this.
  3. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    You get to go if somebody invites you. You can come to mine, Johann. :emoji_blush:
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Steve F. --- naive, in this context? I think you just made a HUGE mistake. I hope he comes along soon. Being the chivalrous guy he is, maybe he'll help you out of that deep, deep hole of delusion you unknowingly dug yourself into.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I realize those from visible minorities, regardless of how they may self-identify, can experience considerable disadvantages in American society. And if I had questioned your own lived experience with that, that would indeed have been naive at best and offensive at worst. Like you, I want to live in a world where that's no longer the case, and I agree it takes all of us to do that and I'm willing to expend time and energy to help make that happen.

    That said, when you're irritated at people you've never met because they don't identify themselves the way you'd prefer, they're not the ones who need to reconsider their position. And I take it that you're making assumptions about me based on my appearance, but I don't always have the luxury of disregarding other people's baggage on this, because my youngest's mom is Afro-Caribbean and that inevitably impacts the way he navigates this messed up world, even though his permanent tan is the least important or interesting thing about him.

    As for whether you could say you're white, if you did that would be good enough for me, sis... but it's not like I don't get why you're presenting that as ridiculous. Still, you may find my son's experience with this interesting. His appearance is ambiguous; people have incorrectly guessed everything from Brazilian to Pakistani to Central American. But the way someone's raised makes a big difference, and the minute he starts talking, people treat him as sociologically white. And he's not code switching, he's just an example of this phenomenon:

    So perhaps it's not quite as ridiculous as it may seem?
    Johann and Michigan68 like this.
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    "White people made the rule, so it is white people who are going to have to dismantle it."

  7. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    So, you mean to tell me that a white man knows what it's like to be Black in a country that's historically hostile to Black people, and Black women in particular? The fact of the matter is - whether you agree or not - is that I have to live by a different set of rules. We all do. And, since white people don't have to contend with that type of reality, they are indeed naive to what it's like. I think you've misunderstood me. That being said...

    MY REALITY IS NOT DELUSIONAL, DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    How white of you, Johann. Do better.
  8. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    You didn't do it on purpose and there was no way you could know. The part you wrote about your son having a "permanent tan" kind of triggered me. I can't even count how many times white people have told me that I was a "white woman stuck in a Black woman's body" or a "white woman with a tan" or "closer to white than Black" because of how I spoke and carried myself. It wasn't enough for me to be an erudite, well-spoken Black woman who carried herself well. I had to be "made white" in some kind of way so they could alleviate their cognitive dissonance. They never understood why it's not a compliment. It's not. Because the inverse of it - the unspoken but understood part of it - is that Black people can't be any of those things.

    Please don't describe your son that way. Say he's Black, say he's biracial; hell, say he's human. But, please don't say he has a permanent tan. It's NOT a tan. It's MELANIN. It's a skin pigment. Tans are temporary. Your son's color is not. He will always have it. Not knowing that the description "permanent tan" is not cool is an example of that naivete I was talking about.

    You misunderstand my irritation. I don't take issue with how people identify or describe themselves. I take issue with part Black people ignoring their Black side until they need the Black community's support or it becomes beneficial, in whatever way, for them to be seen as Black. Basically, I'm tired of them trying to use us. We used to fall for it, but those days are over. Either you're Black or you're not. Pick a side and stay there.

    Also, as a woman who has gg and ggg-grandparents who were owned and enslaved by their own fathers, you having a Black partner or child doesn't mean anything. And, a lot of Black Americans feel the same way. Black-adjacent means nothing. I'm not trying to be mean at all. But, there are levels to this that you'll never understand. That's what I meant by naive. It wasn't an insult.
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You may not mean "naive" as an insult, but you're using it in a way to dismiss the opinion of everyone else in the conversation. Yours is not the only valid perspective, and when you insist that no one else can understand these issues, you're using the ethnicity of others as an attempt to preemptively undermine any disagreement with you.

    A glaring example is that you said you don't take issue with how people identify themselves, but right after a whole paragraph about how I should refer to my own son. I'm sorry your negative experiences with other people have led you to react so strongly to my flippant comment, but he's a strongly self-actualized person who doesn't need you (or me, for that matter) to tell him what his identity is.
  10. StevenKing

    StevenKing Member

    Quite possibly...I was named after McLane Stevenson.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I guess I didn't realize he was that big a deal back in the day.
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    "Tellarites do not argue for reasons. They simply argue." -- Sarek of Vulcan
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That's OK. Mr. Stevenson himself says he didn't catch on (till later) that he wasn't such a big deal, really. Lt. Col. Henry Blake was the big deal, He's important enough for a Wiki, though, but so is Steve Levicoff - and right, Dr. Steve, I'm not. I know. From the Wiki on Mr. Stevenson:

    "Stevenson's dramatic career decline resulted in his becoming a target for industry jokes. One television critic wrote that he had "worn out his television welcome", while another created "The Annual McLean Stevenson Memorial 'I'm Gonna Quit This Show and Become a Big Star' Award." Stevenson commented in 1990 that some of the criticism was justified, conceding that leaving M*A*S*H was the biggest mistake of his career.[4] "I made the mistake of believing that people were enamored of McLean Stevenson when the person they were enamored of was Henry Blake", said Stevenson. (Emphasis mine - J.)"
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  15. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Well, I've been away for a week, and imagine my surprise when I return to find this thread at the top of the list. And that it's been massively hijacked. Go figure . . .

    As for the whole racial thingey, I can't be bothered. I figure that I'm not the victim of 400 years of oppression. On the other hand, I didn't cause 400 years of oppression.

    So I'll simply add a link to:

    The show Wait a Minim had its premiere in 1966 in South Africa before moving onto London and then Broadway. The amazing thing is that this song, "Black-White Calypso," could be performed in South Africa at the height of apartheid.

    As for the notion that black lives matter, not to me. Nor brown lives, yellow lives or, for that matter, white lives. The only thing that matters to me is green lives, as I wrote here:

    For some 20 years I've had a personal policy - never to discuss five issues: Politics, race, religion, sex, and sports. Except of course, for when I make tasteless jokes. At that point, anything goes.
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Something else I noticed when checking Wiki on McLean Stevenson. There's a Wiki page on Steve Levicoff. But none for Rich Douglas (and I also checked under his full name.) Oh well, maybe that's something else Dr. Steve can hold over Dr. Rich's head the next time they get into a scrap. Yep - Dr. Douglas has an extra doctorate (Does he keep it as a "throwaway piece" in an ankle-holster?) but Dr. Levicoff has a Wiki and wrote a bunch of books.

    "Tellarites do not argue for reasons. They simply argue." -- Sarek of Vulcan - thanks for the Quote, Dr. Rich.
    Yep - Tellarites and some Doctor-Kings of DI ...
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I am grateful there is no Wikipedia page on me. Nor would I ever merit such.

    There has yet to be a professional situation where my Leicester degree mattered. There may never be. I cannot imagine one, and it is not why I did it.

    I think Stevenson sold himself short. Yes, "they" were digging on Blake, but he WAS Blake. The character was previously played by Roger Bowen in the movie, and no one fell in love with that version.

    It is really hard for sitcom stars to catch lightning in a bottle twice. It's probably better to ride the wave as long as possible with the first. No regular actor on MASH had a hit show subsequently. Alda had a robust career, but not as a leading man. (He was smart about that.) But the credits for the rest of the cast are pretty thin.

    You can see this in more contemporary examples, too. Look at the cast of Friends--a mixed bag. Even the most successful sitcom of all time--Seinfeld--couldn't produce worth follow-ups (except for Louis-Dreyfus). Roseanne? Galecki because he was re-cast by the same producer (who used a lot of folks from that show).

    Dick Van Dyke couldn't do it, and it too MTM three tries to get another one that worked. The three iterations of Lucy were varying levels of bad. The list goes on and on. I really respect the work people do on those shows and sympathize with how hard it is to repeat.
    Johann likes this.
  18. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    When Black people speak about things that specifically affect Black people our opinions are the only ones that matter. Other ethnic groups are not a consideration. Sorry if you thought you were. But, no.

    As far as your son goes, I didn't try to tell you, or him, his identity. All I said was that he didn't have a tan. Tans are temporary and his skin color is not. Calling his skin color a "permanent tan" is a microaggression. Words have power and unintentional hurt hurts as much as intentional hurt. I was just trying to give you a head's up. Take it or leave it. It doesn't matter to me.
  19. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    I meant to put laughing faces after all those exclamation points, but I was trying to rush and get in bed before I nodded off on my keyboard. I purposely chose that wording for its comic effect... "delusional reality". I wasn't spiraling, guys, I promise. :D :D :D
  20. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    I'm a bit intense in the latter part of this thread and that can come off in not a good way given the subject matter. I'm not trying to alienate people. It's just that this is very personal to me because it affects my day-to-day life in any number of ways. It's different when you're "in it" as opposed to observing from the outside.

    Levicoff, I'm sorry for helping to hijack your thread. The thread I started has been hijacked too. I guess that's the way of DI.
    SteveFoerster likes this.

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