State Approved Utility?

I'd also like to clarify my position on unaccredited religious degrees. You have stated several times that many religious schools have a different mission. I agree. They have a right to set up any training program they wish. Maybe they have a need for specialized, non-scholastic education. But why, then, do they award bacheolor's, master's, and doctorates?

These titles carry a presumtion of a university education. Why not call the diploma a certificate in ministry?

The fact that they are titled in common degree terms, leads, in my view, to misinformation.

===

I agree with Plumdog here.

 

Certificate?
Certificate in Philosophy?
Ph.C.?

Wouldn't this be confused with the Chancellorate of Philosophy?
Ph.C.?

 

What about publication?

Rich,

Two questions:

1) Are you aware of any studies on the research and/or publishing record of SA grads?

2) Do you think publishing could enhance the status of SA grads or their degrees?

Thanks.

Roscoe

 

==

I'd copied Plumdog's comment , but had erased his name...sorry. i agree in general with his view. The exceptions would be those very few unaccredited religious schools much recognized in academe as RA equivalent which are offering degrees. The others in my opinion are misrepresenting by granting MAs and docs particularly. It might be reasonable for them to give only certificates just as Texas, I believe, required of Tyndale(and I don't knowof that school's quality except I like its stress on the original languages).

I suppose you would not savor it if an unaccredited school gave a grad of (only) a BA a Doc of Ministry after only 30 hours of "grad" work and then said grad considered and represented his degree as the equivalent of yours. As Plumdog might say, one has has the expectation, that genuine degrees are somewhat similar in prereqs, duration, substance, and rigor. But few nonaccred religious schools match accred ones in these areas. So this is misrepresentation...which is not , in fact, Christian.

So, I like the certificate idea in this context.

 

Re: What about publication?

 

If you run a google search, more often you find announcements touting the accomplishments of legally operating State Approved/Registered graduates such as:

Congratulations to Nancy DiLiegro for receiving her Ph.D. in Healthcare from KennedyWestern University. Nancy has also become a Fellow of the American Collegeof Healthcare Executives.

http://www.nyschp.org/the_pharmacist/200103/March-April2001.pdf.G

This is not obscure either, run searches on Google or Alta Vista, and you will find hundreds of readily employed and successful graduates from: CCU, California Pacific University, Kennedy-Western, Pacific Western, Century, SCUPS, Central State CA. All US legally operating, but unaccredited.

It may be a travisty to some, who have RA Degrees, that these schools, exist. However, go back to my orginial point - Utility, is there one for State Approved Schools?

 

Thanks, Rich.

Roscoe

 

So the goal is to find one (1) example that shows the point and then gerneralize that example to the world.

Q."Utility, is there one for State Approved Schools?"

A. For CCU see Water Resources Division - City of Santa Ana so the answer is obviously yes!

 

Congratulations indeed! However, I'm not sure that there's any reason to believe that Nancy owes her membership in this organization to her K-W degree. She was probably qualified for membership without it (sorry, the hyperlink wouldn't work.)
Jack

 

If it is RJT's goal to demonstrate that some people get utility from their unaccredited degrees, he/she's beating a dead horse. No one contends this. But what is in contention is why.

What is not in contention is that these degrees are often not acceptable. Also, it is difficult sometimes to predict when and where this will occur. Except when they're explicitly excluded, of course, which seldom happens regarding RA degrees. (Sometimes, professional accreditation is also necessary for one's degree to be accepted.)

So RJT can continue to find examples of people with unaccredited degrees. But it doesn't change anything.

 

True enough. So, what does it mean?

I think that it these many online resumes are evidence that some individuals, and by implication their employers and colleagues, accept the degrees to some extent. Certainly they don't think that the degrees are embarrassing, or else they wouldn't list them. How far we can generalize from these examples, I frankly don't know.

These resumes seem to be an unfamiliar kind of endorsements. The message that this stuff sends out depends on the implicit authority of these individuals.

It shouldn't be dismissed. Conventional universities certainly make promotional use of this kind of material, and their webpages routinely tout successful graduates. The success of Berkeley graduates is certainly taken to be an indicator of Berkeley's academic strength.

But I'm not sure how much weight to give it, and even what it tells me exactly. It's even cloudier in the case of mid-career individuals who often didn't need the degrees in the first place and would have accomplished precisely the same things without earning them.

Personally, I think that the resumes look best when they are one (albeit important) part of a larger picture, one that includes recognition by scholarly and professional organizations, collaborations with other better recognized institutions, clear signs of research productivity, grants and awards won and so on. I want to see how much respect the conventional academic and professional communities have for the school in question.

I don't want to see schools moving false-front convenience addresses from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in search of lax regulations, refusing to enroll students in the state where they actually operate, reselling their operating approval to international franchisees, claiming spurious accreditations, granting large blocks of "life-experience" credit indiscriminately and so on.

It's a big picture that's composed of many smaller pieces. If we don't have the benefit of accreditors' inspections and are left to our own devices, I don't think that we are going to get clearcut 'yes-no' answers in many cases. We will often get mixed signals, and will have to make our own judgements. What was reasonably objective devolves into a matter of educational aesthetics, to personal taste.

Unfortunately, that runs directly counter to what a degree is supposed to accomplish: verifying unfamiliar strangers' educational levels. If we have no way of determining that short of intimate personal acquaintance with both the individual and the school, and then only on a case-by-case basis, then why bother with a degree in the first place?

 

Sorry, but I am still not an advocate for all unacredited schools. This is an absolute that I will not accept and do not endorse. To lump them all together as you are doing is just as wrong, as you say I am for endorsing them.

Why do substandard schools award degrees that presume an university education? I honestly do not know the answer, though I presume the answer lies with money.

There are three schools that I know of that are brick and mortar and pushing for acreditation. According to what I understand you to say, these three schools should be avoided like the plague. These are not schools that are trying to scam anyone, but they have had (in the past) a hard time making financial ends meet. There are in every way legitmate. When they get their acreditation I will post their names, but until then I am watching and waiting.

I could truly accept the certificate route. I think it is a good thing, especially if it could be somehow added in as portfolio work somewhere else. Sort of bridging the gap between the financial have and have nots. And I have suggested that to my school for which I was shot down repeatedly and with great force. However you may be pleased to know that I have convinced the head of the extension center to close down this summer. That effectively closes three extension centers of this school.

When I started back to school I did not know as much about accreditation as I do now. The only accredited schools at that time in my field in my location were not in my culture. I think that is what you may have a harder time accepting that even in 2003 there is still a lot of animosity regarding the cultural influence of schools...that a M.Div from Campbell or Regent in some cultures will not be as well received as a M.Div from Virginia Union or Howard. And vice versa could be conceivebly true. Sorry but that is reality...the coursework may be similar but the culture is not. Even though all are RA.

Finally if I get my degree lets say from TESC (whose philosophy programs interest me, but I don't have the 4 grand to pony up to start classes right now) I still have to go out there and prove that I learned something. That is what many of the graduates from unacredited schools are doing as well...proving that they learned something. No one can assume that just beacuse we went to a name school we know something...no name recognition.

I will give you this...If I had known then what I know now, I still may not of had my RA degree. I just would not have had a degree from anywhere else, either.

 

I totally agree with you with the above. One time in one of my classes I argue this point with one of my instructors I was not learning anything, The way I saw it if I get an A in the class because I tap dance with the instructor, would look bad in the eyes of my peers, since they would asume that I got an "A" in the course, I am supposed to be a master in the subject, in contrast if you get an "C", and they know this, they can assume that you did your best but you are not an expert and they may be easy on you and not rely on your expertise, I rather deal with the later. That is just me.


Vini

 

Flipkid,

Since I, too, am a philosophy major, let me offer you a suggestion.
If you're having a hard time raising the four grand for TESC (which I know is a problem for alot of people), start by taking courses, one at a time if necessary, at the lowest cost schools. Most general ed. courses, and lower division philosophy courses (intro. to philosophy, logic, intro. to ethics) can betaken at community colleges for a fraction of the costs. Begin testing out of the courses you think you are strongest in. When you raise the enrollment fee transfer your credits to TESC.

Getting started is the hard part.

 

Thanks for the great advice!!!

At this point my "plan" is to enroll at Defiance in their Distance Certificate (Design for Leadership) program that will transfer over. This will give me something "positive" to do while paying off my former RA school which is the big hold up. Once that is done, then I should have enough credits to complete the degree program at either TESC (Philosophy) or Defiance in one year. I also have Hampton (BA in Religious Studies via Distance)ready to go, but they are a little pricey and since I have no tuition reimbursement, they may have to be put on hold. Both Hampton and Defiance have my paperwork.

I will get there. Thanks again.

 

Flipkid,

It's been talked about extensivly on this forum, but have you looked into University of London. It takes a minimum of three years, but is very inexpensive. They offer both a BA in philosophy and a BD (Bacheolor of Divinity). The BD, I imagine, is oriented towards the Angelican Church, but if you look at the course listings it is fairly flexible, and looks like it can be turned into a more generic religious studies degree. Both of these are also available as certificate programs.

If you are strapped for cash, Western Illinois offers courses at about $100.00/unit. The fees can be paid anytime during the quarter.

Eastern Oregon offers courses at about $100.00/unit, as well. One third of the fees must be paid at the begining, but the balance may be paid anytime during the quarter.

These two allow for easier payments, if you are on a fixed income.

The only danger with my previous advice is that without being enrolled, you always run the risk of changing requirements, etc.
In your situation, however, it maybe worth the risk. As long as you are taking RA approved courses, and using some logic in your course selection (review the requirements of TESC), you should eventually be able to put togather a BA at one of the big three.

I think the largest danger you may be facing is the time wasted while waiting to gather togather that enrollment fee. That may take years. But if you get started now, you can move closer to your goal. And you never know what the future will bring. You will end up kicking yourself in the ass if two years from know you suddenly come into the money, and realize you wasted two years.
I know, I've been there.

 

I have not seriously looked into the University of London for Philosophy, but I will...thanks again.

I thought I had read someone having a problem with the classes or something at Western Ill. This too I will investigate..after I finish teaching class this morning.

Time wasted is never reclaimed. I know this to be sooo true, yet now I am able to wiggle some things and to pay off that one debt to FMC that has been nailing me for so long. I did not want to throw away 2 years and a good GPA away. Part of the problem has also been that I have been waiting to make more financially so I could pay it off in one chunk, without hurting my family...instead now, I am sending what I can when I can and whittling it down slowly. I should be fully enrolled somewhere with all my credits in the fall of this year. Meanwhile I am studying for CLEP tests and doing the Defiance thing. Their cost in the Design for Leadershiop program is 162.00 per credit hour...plus they are working with me on the FMC thing, so that is a major help.

Thanks for the meaningful dialogue.

 

WIU tuition increase at 115.00 per unit...will increase to 130.75 in the fall. They do have one philosophy class open at this time.