State Approved Utility?

I disagree about universities existing on a continuum of perception. Or more accurately, I agree with you, but would argue that there are many different continua, with each one a function of whoever is doing the perceiving.

Here's an extreme example:

You get what you pay for. There are little cheap-ass budget schools like Stanford and MIT, and then there's the real CA-approved deal:

Test Pilot/Flight Test Engineer Professional Course  Fixed and rotary wing. (50 weeks) $ 570,000/pilot

http://www.ntps.com/courses/tpfte.htm

My reason for pointing this out (besides the fact that I find NTPS fascinating) is that it jumps way out of its assigned place and shatters any hierarchy that would place it somewhere down below RA DL programs.

I'd go so far as to suggest that if one is interested in this particular educational niche subject, NTPS is arguably the best civilian school in the world. (Sorry Oxford.)

 

Re: WOW

Dennis, what is the value of an audit?

Tony

 

Re: WOW

 

Re: WOW

 

Response to Jack Tracey: Where would I place GAAP foreign research docs on the continuum?

I really don't know. I have actually never encountered a person with one, an employment setting where a person had one, or any other circumstance where the foreign doc was discussed. Personally I would see them in the same category as RA distance docs. I am not sure that is a resonable place, just an assumption on my part. However, I have peers that I have encouraged to consider this option because it would meet their personal career needs.

My attempt at using the continuum was just to make a point. The point is someone will always place the value of a degree by comparing it to another degree. The argument could also be made as to type of degree versus where it was earned. For example, there are those that argue a Ph.D. is somehow "better" than an Ed.D. or Dr.P.H., or D.Min., or Psy.D.. There are also those that argue an M.D. is better than a D.O. or an M.D is better than a Ph.D. or a D.O. is better than a D.C. or an M.D. is better than an N.D.. The point remains the same; no matter which degree you have or where you earned it from, someone always will have a perception about it. From my perspective the choice about pursuing he doc is then very personal. You make it based on your needs and its potential utility for your circumstance.

For example, I have an Ed.D. in Occupational and Adult Education form Oklahoma State University. I wanted a similar degree from Nova, but my employer would not support it. He almost did not support this degree because it was an Ed.D. (I liked the idea of the Ed.D. being practioner based) instead of a Ph.D.. However with education, he understood the difference. I though about a similar degree that was a Ph.D. at OU and a similar degree from COlumbia. However, ultimately the degree at OSU was what I really wanted. The key professors offered things that interested me, my employer supported it and I gained personally and professionally from it. This brings me back to the orginal point, every degree is perceived positively or negatively by someone; it ultimately is up to the individual as to whether or not it has personal utility.

 

I agree with your summation ........obecve.

I always think that some State Approved colleges get a bumprap here, maybe rightly so and I understand because they are not accredited. I think and I admit it is my opinion, that there are very few state approved colleges that are better than some accredited colleges based based on the narrated accomplishments of their graduates. I submit to you that there are some lousy, not worth a dime accredited colleges that hide under the disguise of RA and their graduates are not "hirable" with their RA degrees. I am speaking from experience here. While I was at University of Texas (graduate and post graduate), my cousing decided to go to a school called Bishop College, an accredited college at the time. The school had extensive problems for a long time before it finally lost it's accreditation and eventually, was closed. Based on the number of students that I know that went to this college, I cannot vouch that anyone of them got a job with their RA degrees in the market that the college was strategically located. Some that attempted to pursue an MBA were told to take additional undergraduate coursework before they can begin an MBA even though some have a BBA. These people were perceived to have inferior degrees even though their degrees were from an RA college. On the contrary, based on the postings on this site, there are some people who have been successful in gaining federal and private appointments with their State approved degrees.

I agree that this is not a everyday occurence for an RA college. The point is, it is all about perception. My opinion is, it is true and so be it, that RA is perceived as the standardized process for recognition (we all usually recognize them), but there are some crapy RA colleges. Also, State approved are perceived as the alternate process for recognition (We all usually do not want to recognize them), but there are some better State Approved colleges.

One last point, I would like to recognize all the postings made by everyone. All of you have shown your wisdom in these debates. It is nice to know that all of you always have the zeal to understand both sides. To me, that is the cornerstone of a debate.

 

Every once in a while I like to jump over to this forum, just to hear the latest creative arguments for non-RA degrees. It's interesting to hear a group of people get togather, under the banner of "California Approved", to convince themselves that these degrees are just as good, useful, etc. as RA degrees.

Please note the following:


IF IT'S NOT RA, IT'S NOT A REAL DEGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course that's just my opinion.

 

Have you read the previous threads? Or visited any accrediting agency's website? While I agree there are diploma mills sprouting up everywhere, I still take the stand that a university cannot state accreditation for up to 6 years! Why in the heck does it take so long? Not all non-RA colleges are bad - some just haven't bothered to apply for accreditation. And to base education requirements, as well as life experience on a school's reputation, rather than one's own blood sweat and tears is stupid - plain and simple. I feel taken advantage of as I usually research an endeavor before embarking on it - Iguess I just didn't pay closer attention. In case anyone is interested, read the FAQ and student info on Hartford University's website. www.hartforduniversity-edu.org - It's quite convincing. Feedback welcome. Teri

 

Well, this is a bit of a loaded question but, what the heck. It's Friday night and the pizza is on the way and the DVD player is just waiting for me to hit the "play" button.

As a preface I'd say that IMHO, all RA degrees are not created equal and so it follows that all GAAP foreign research degrees are not created equal either. In virtually every case a PhD from Harvard or Stanford will beat out a PhD from, lets say, UMass or UConn, etc. even though the latter two are solid RA schools. Similarly, a PhD from Oxford is going to beat out a PhD from UNISA. I believe this is true even if it just comes down to the "name recognition factor," which I believe is a significant factor. With all this in mind I'd have to say, "It depends." It's possible that a PhD from Oxford could trump a US RA PhD. They are probably other foreign schools whose academic reputations are so good and so well known that they'd beat out US schools.
Now keep in mind that I'm using the "utility index" as I understand it and as it relates to my own personal situation.

I've got to go eat that pizza now. I can say more later.
Jack

 

Also, it should be explicitly stated that once you factor in the DL component then things shift about even further. What I mean is that it's one thing to earn a research PhD from a foreign GAAP school if you are actually living in that country, using their research facilities, having regular access to professors, etc. and it's another thing entirely if the degree is 100% non-residential. So, with all that being said, it seems clear to me that "a GAAP foreign research PhD" is not a singular concept and so I wouldn't try to place it in any singular segment of your continuum. When you add in other factors such as the relative strength of a particular department or the presence of an especially well known member of the faculty, having that person on your commitee, etc. you really have to take each individual scenario on its own merits. Overall, however, I'd say that while it's possible to imagine scenarios where a GAAP foreign research PhD might be superior to a US RA PhD, these are not realistic scenarios in my world. For example, the PhD from Oxford might be seen as superior to the PhD from UMass but I can't imagine who could afford such a degree. So, in that regard it seems a bit of a silly question. At the same time, I would personally say that a GAAP foreign research PhD from say, UNISA, would be superior in utility to a PhD from a state approved or unaccredited school. I believe that this is a value judgement on my part and am willing to accept that others may come to different conclusions. I do not seriously try to change anyone elses mind about this but I've seen too many "time bomb" threads on this forum to risk that route myself. I am not far enough along in my own program to give a clear answer to how this degree might be received in the American marketplace. Hopefully, when I finish, we'll all still be here and I can let you know.
Jack

 

How was the pizza?

 

Jack,

I agree with your assessment of the GAAP foreign research degree. I had just not thought about that option in my original analysis.

 

I'm sorry you were convinced by these people.

I don't know what you base this assertion on: "Not all non-RA colleges are bad - some just haven't bothered to apply for accreditation." Which schools are not accredited simply because they didn't bother to apply?

Why is relying on a school's reputation "stupid"? Employers do it. Other academic institutions do it. Students do it. In fact, ignoring a school's accreditation and reputation--or lack thereof--can bring undesired results. Your example demonstrates that.

While it is true that all new schools start off as unaccredited, legitimate schools, for the most part, move quickly to candidacy status, which normally takes far less than the 6 years you cite. Also, this paradigm excludes (as it should) schools that have been operating for decades without accreditation. Finally, your own Hartford University had no operating history, no physical presence, no curriculum, no coursework, no residency, no license to operate, no faculty, no mailing address, etc. Again, I'm sorry they convinced you that they were for real, but it mystifies me how they did it.

Seeing that you got a degree from them, it had to be shipped somehow. Is there a mailing address, and would you please post it here?

Did they provide you a curriculum (none is posted on the website). Did you work with faculty, even as advisors? (Again, none are listed on the website.) How did you communicate with them? (All I got was a recording when I called.)

At this point, it might be wise to strengthen your understanding of accreditation before you extol the potential benefits of unaccredited schools. As you've clearly demonstrated, they're not always a good idea.

 

I am a fan of non-RA, California approved schools. I have a BS and I am 2 classes from my MBA from CalCoast. I also have my BS from COSC and just started on my MS from Touro.

Here are some facts...my CalCoast degree has been paid for by my employer, it was well received and respected. Here is another fact, they just changed the tuition assistance form to read, "Name of accredited institution” from “Name of institution.”

Fact…a friend of mine works for a very large medical equipment manufacturer (they also own a TV station, plastics division, appliances, etc) and they paid for his CalCoast BS in Management. He told a co-worked how well the school worked for him and his co-worker applied for tuition assistance and was told that they no longer provide tuition assistance because the school is not accredited. Same story for a friend of mine that works for a laser company…they will not pay because CalCoast is not accredited.

Obviously, companies are becoming more and more aware of the accreditation issues and seem to be taking them more serious. While I feel that CalCoast, I can’t speak for other non-RA schools, provides a quality education, I am reconsidering listing my MBA on my resume when I complete the program.

I would not go so far as to say that “if it is not RA, it is not a real degree” but if you are going to earn a degree to get a job or a promotion, make sure the corporate world or the company you work for will accept it. It is not a matter of - is the school a quality school, it is a matter of its acceptance by the company you want to work for…RA or not.

 

Four degree programs and six specializations...

My suggestion would be to check out Capella's web site if you want to see Hartford's curriculum. It seems that Hartford copied their "Course Offerings" straight from Capella's website -- even the pictures:

Hartford's Course Offerings

Capella's Schools and Programs

(Well, OK, Hartford did add the School of Religion and Theology.)


Of course, if you would like more specific information on Hartford's large variety of course offerings listed on the same page, I would suggest checking out the University of Maryland's web site:

UMD Schedule of Classes

 

...

If you found these convincing, I would recommend looking in to Concordia University and Canyon College, the apparent sources of these documents.

Student Info:

About Hartford University

About Concordia University Wisconsin

The FAQs:

Hartford's FAQ, including "The top three (3) reasons for earning college degrees online!"

Canyon Colleges's FAQ, including "The top three (3) reasons for earning college degrees online!"

And there's more:

Hartford's "Alumni and Friends" page

Adams State College "Alumni and Friends" page

And I'm sure the list goes on...

Of course, I guess it is possible that all of these schools copied their material from Hartford.

 

Way to go, Jeff...

 

Wait a minute. Concordia University Wisconsin is RA, and is a completely legitimate school run by the (liberal) Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. There are fake "Concordias" out there, but this is most definitely NOT a fake. As to the rest: spot on!

 

Absolutely correct. I believe that with the exception of Canyon College, all of the schools that Hartford copied (Capella, University of Maryland, Concordia Wisconsin, Adams State College) are legitimate RA institutions.

Canyon College appears to be in the ranks of the less than wonderful, but I've only taken a cursory look.

 

HAHAHAHAHAH, only if you are Wisconson Synod.