Robert de Sorbon evaluation

Many new mills and existing less then wonderful schools
are looking around the world for recognized weak education ministries or systems to gain quick recognition.

Liberia, Norfolk Islands, British Islands, Dominica, Saind Kits and others.

Is France the next stop for schools fleeing Hawaii ?
Or if laws in Wioming get stricter?

Learner.

 

imaginary stuff (you know, like mills)

You are the whiner. Are you happy now?

Imaginary enemies? Maybe the swastika flying over Paris was an optical illusion. Maybe de Gaulle was delusional. Maybe the American, British, Anzac, Canadian, Polish, and, yes, French dead in Normandy were fighting an imaginary enemy. Or maybe not.

Save for US and, yes, Soviet sacrifice, you'd be singing the Horsewhistle.

You keep making gratuitous anti-US comments. Fortunately you are likely totally ignorant about Argentina, so Bullet doesn't have to put up with this sort of thing, except for your generically demeaning comments about all Americans north or south.

And, no, don't chalk it up to your difficulties with the English language. Your intent is to insult and sling stereotypes, which is typical behaviour by mill shills. Sore Buns is well served by you.

Are you happy now? I hope so.

 

in general - right general

milotach or maybe anyone else with interest.

I don't know what is legal in France in regards to Higher Education, but I find it impossible (if you will) that such a huge legal loophole exists for the benefit of potentially shady operations, to simple write "I am a private institution" , I don't teach regular classes, so no correct governmental permits are needed and since I use the VAE procedure the degree's I sell are actually legitimate due to a legal loophole. Look what has happened to Liberian Higher Education, it's compareable to rape of national resources.
If all the above is the case, the French will need to move on re-writing the laws of Higher Education because if it's this simple then France will now export diplomas that are worthless in academia but none the less legal. This is very sick.

 

Re: in general - right general

Bullet If degrees are actually legitimate is something what I do not say. I am only giving to you the information about how it is working more or less, so that you can understand the legal frame, but there is some people that are traing to kill the messenger. I did not make the law, I am telling you what is happend.

Sure that french authorities should change the law. If your educational authorities say that is not legitimate in your country, them you have the answer for your country, final dot.

Did you know previously what was happend on this affaire before I told you?, for sure no. I just give it to you an information about the laws on France actually, the rest is added of your own harvest.

So if the information about this is considered dangerous, I pray seriously to the moderator to remove all the information gave it in all my post. Better remove complitly all. In that way you should go to read all the french laws in the future if you are interested on the truth.

So if you do not like the information ( I am not refering to you personally) do not tell me nothing to me, lets go in front of the France embassy and make an strike, I am only showing to you the root of the problem. It seems that if someone read an information about a problem in a newspaper or on TV the solutions is just kill the journaliste. Interesting conception of the freedon.

As I told Bullet this is first time this happend on France. So blindly, I was agree on it with Bill , is not possible to see the things, I explained the problem, and I was only traing to defend (this is the interest) the rest of the ecoles and institutes working, no to be mixed on the salad done with Sorbon. For me you can put the Sorbon on fire THIS IS NOT MY PROBLEM but do not do the same with the rest. The most of the journalist on france studied on a privated Ecole and they are professionals for many years.

 

Salut

Salut,

Je regrette, mais but I mean no intention of offense.

Bonne journée!

 

Re: Salut

dans l'échange sincère d'idées il n'y a pas lieu pour les offenses

Where there is a sincerily exchange of opinions there is no place for ofenses.

Good night here is midnight

 

Troubled by the AACRAO response

I just return from my Swiss Military Service (damn Cold!!!) and I am trouble by the Memo of Mr. Contreras and its citation of AACRAO.
According to Mr. Contreras

ACCRAO Says:
" But, the law doesn't grant Sorbon (or anyone else) authority to grant degrees."
I think this is wrong Sorbon according to the French consulate is an Institution d'Enseignement supérieur Privé and has the right to grant degrees as per L 731-14". It has the right therefore to us any procedure, including the VAE.This come from the Consulate.

Contreras says

Much of the other documentation appears to be related to Sorbon as a business It does not seem adequate, as Sorbon is registered through its INSEE number as a non profit organisation of Enseignement supérieur".I checked personally.
'
Accrao says
In addition, AACRAO notes that Sorbon claims that several different evaluators recognize it, when in fact this appears to be one person flying several flags of convenience It seems also incorrect as now they post 5 different US evaluators in 5 different states that seems not to be owned by the same person.It appears that they are owned by 4 different entities with no relations but I could be wrong on that. Could Mr. Contreras or AACRAO document the above assertion?

AACRAO Says
Also, French law allows only certain schools to use the term "university" and Sorbon is not on that list This is really not serious. The Article L 731 of the code reserves the term "Université" only to public institutions. It is why Sorbon, like HEC (Hautes Etudes Commerciales), Like ESSEC, Like Sup de Co. like INSEAD, (#1 MBA school) are not called "université", The term has nothing to do with recognition but Public or Private. I confess that part of this argument is in Sorbon's page.

Does AACRAO means that HEC, INSEAD (Ranked #1 business School in Europe by the FT) are not valid LOL ? Curiously and contrary to AACRAO phrase the French top compétitive institutions seem avoid the term "Université" even if they are Government owned such as ENA (Ecole Nationale d'Administration), Sciences Pô (IEP), Ecole Polytechnique (#1 in Science), Ecole des Arts et Metiers (#1 in Engineering), Ecole des Mines, Ecole Normale Supérieure (#1 in education), Ecole des Ponts et Chaussées, Ecole Vétérinaire de Maison Alfort (#1 Vet School in france and a top European),etc. This is my personal research source Le Nouvel Observateur.

I think that Oregon has the absolute right not to recognize the diploma from any country. But it is not adequate to say that De Sorbon " is a foreign degree-granting entity that cannot demonstrate that it has the legal authority to issue degrees from a recognized government". For me, based on the above,Ecole Robert de Sorbon t has the legal authority to grant degree in France, but of course the State of Oregon can refuse it.

With my kind regards, hoping that I will have a better climate near the Lake. (I was in Valais/Wallis) .

 

What is "L 731-14'? I assume that this is some legal code section or something, but using it as if it were a magical incantation doesn't convince me of anything.

Personally, I'd find these L-numbers more convincing if somebody wore a green clerical vestment and waved a curtain rod while chanting them.

But short of that, I'd like to see an English language translation of the entire higher education portion of the Code de France, so that 'L-731-14' and all its neighboring sections can be read in their full context.

Europeans may denounce that as the arrogant intransigence of an ignorant American cowboy, but please remember that YOU are trying to convince US of Sorbon's legitimacy. We are under absolutely no obligation to accept anything blindly and uncritically. If you want us to embrace Sorbon, convince us why we should.

That contradicts what others have said, suggesting that these prior learning assessments can only be performed by prescribed institutions in a prescribed manner. Again, I would really like to find a source on this that's a little more authoritative than discussion group posts.

Good for you.

What's an "INSEE number"? What does registration "as a non profit organization of enseignment superior" really mean? (I'm assuming that 'enseignment superior' means 'higher education'.) Precisely how does this registration differ from a business license? (If it does.)

Then the 'Universite Francophone Robert de Sorbon' was just a bad dream. I don't know whether that's reassuring or alarming.

If ecoles are not subject to a reliable external verification mechanism, and particularly if it's possible for some very doubtful entities to operate as ecoles right alongside the prestigious ones, then it's going to be very hard to sustain the claim that all the ecoles are RA-equivalent simply because they are ecoles.

That's not to deny that some of the most prestigious schools in France are ecoles. But if the overall system isn't reliable, then it's probably best to take these things on a case-by-case basis.

You seem to be arguing for two inconsistent propositions:

First, you seem to want to defend the honor of French ecoles. (That's understandable.)

Second, you want to defend Sorbon by associating it with the ecoles. (That's harder to understand.)

It seems to me that if Sorbon really has qualified as an ecole, then that demonstrates that merely being a French ecole is no guarantee of RA-equivalence. So your first proposition collapses.

We need evidence that a reliable accreditation process is part of what's necessary to register as a French ecole. And we need some independent evidence of Sorbon's academics and scholarship so that it will no longer seem to discredit the ecoles.

 

You probaly misunderstood me

Dear Friend,

I was mostly reacting to the AACRAO Phrases that were reported by Mr. Contreras. On a true or false basis.

However Your comments are right, logical and go further as you deduct or imply a position about De Sorbon. I was just concentrating on the accuracy of the general AACRAO statements, which appeared to me questionable. I am not attacking AACRAO or defending de Sorbon I tried to stay with the Facts.

Swiss are by nature neutrals.

Here are some of my responses to your questions. These are not the" word of god" but my personal understanding.

1) L 731 is a series of articles that organise in the French code de l'education(education Code) the Private Institutions of Higher Education. It defines the creation conditions, the procedure and the control of programs and teaching by the French Government. It appears that de Sorbon is an Etablissement d'Enseignement Supérieur.

2) INSEE Number is very important it is a registration number with great influence. Sorbon is according to the number is a "Registered Institution of higher education Not for profit". It is not a Business but an Association(big difference in Europe). As an Institution of Higher Education, among many other perks, It is exemt from sals taxes (TVA)

3) In France only Public institutions may be called "université" but many top public are called écoles.Therefore the statement attributed to AACRAO nwas not accurate. I imagine that Sorbon may use the title "université" in other Francophone countries where it is allowed.

4) Being Swiss I do not defend or attack the French. I try to remain neutral. I just stick firmly to one fact contrary to the AACRAO sentence seems to imply. Sorbon has the legal right to give degrees in France. I just pointed that the AACRAO phrase about Université is not correct. I think that Sorbon pushes legally the envelope but they had the right to do so.
'
One fact could be questionable about de Sorbon. The French VAE Law requires interviews. Most of the French universities requires physical interviews for the VAE , Sorbon has "electronic interviews" . The French word is "Entretien" and can be understand both ways (Entretien téléphonique for exemple ). What do you think of it Many US Universities are on line and never met physically the students no ?

Could you please tell me your opinion about one individual owning 5 Evaluation Services. Is it right or not?

Sincerely yours my dear cfriend I hope i did not offend you . It is 8 in the morning I am going to work!

 

This whole debate reminds me of the recent embarrassing search for weapons of mass destruction. The face saving conclusion was that, regardless what the CIA and the defense department 'proved' ex ante, there were no weapons found ex post, as they only existed ex ex ante!

I think this debate will end in a similar manner. I think it will be shown that the university in question is legally established and can do all the things it claims it can.

However, it will be shown that its reputation will ultimately stand or fall on its own performance, having no external verification of its operations.

 

If one has to go to the lengths seen here to defend the legality of some school--against some pretty convincing evidence to the contrary--one has to wonder. "Sorbonites" are not helping this entity's cause.

 

Send for the Smith Brothers

Alain Michal has posted a note to "Mr. Cough" on DegreeBoard, commenting that he is banned from DegreeInfo. For the sake of your convenience and interest, here it is (moderators-- if it is improper to do this, please expunge this post):

 

Bill I am ABSOLUTLY AGREE in that you have the right, ALL THE RIGHTS to accept any kind of degree or to reject. This is not the question here, even your USA RA degrees are not valid to be used on Europe countries always. For example in Madrid there is an American Universtiy called Suffolk, they are legalizated like a foreing university, they have a little campus and a famous actor doing publicity for them but they say on their publicity very clear “If you want to have your degree convalidated from the spanish educational authorities ask before enroll due that we can not give any waranty that your degree will be convalidated”. Suffolk is RA.

YOU HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DEGREE MY GOD. But Mr. Contreras or AACRAO or any other has NO RIGHT TO GIVE BOGUS INFORMATION about a foreing educational system, that is concerning to thousand of students in the other ecoles and Instituts. I gave to you like a journaliste all the information about the French law and sistematicaly one time over one time the argument of the Sorbon was coming in a patriotic exhalted maner.

ONCE AGAIN I PRAY ANYONE TO FORGIVE ME IF MY WORDS WAS OFFENSIVE. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, I LIKE YOUR CONTRY AND CITIZENS. By the way this little forum does not represent all the United States. As I,obviousily, do not represent all europe, fortunatly for them, USA-EU.

I told in my first post that other instituions in France can consider difamatory that words coming aparently from AACRAO-CONTRERAS?, and you could find any other legal process against them with independency of Sorbon. OREGON or Contreras can declare not valid for them the degrees from Sorbon, THIS IS PART OF THEIR RIGHTS LIKE A EDUCATIONAL AUTHORITIES, this is the same on France, Spain or Italy. WE ARE AGREE 100% ON IT, NO DISCUSSION ON IT, Only Sorbon wich is affected must have something to say on it. BUT YOU CAN NOT CLAIM BOGUS AFIRMATIONS ABOUT THE LAW IN OTHER COUNTRY. It was very simple to say "does not meet our educational criteria", for homologation is neccesary to pass an examination on our University called X. This is very common here for foreing degrees. Or whay not if you are the authority? directly "does not meet our criteria", finnal dot.

What will you think if I will say something about your educational system or health or any other service for society using for it a bogus information about your Secreatry of State of Education and an no real laws IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY and wich is worse, not like a privated person LIKE A PUBLIC WORKER OF THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT. Will you do not be “surprise” with this?, I can not belive.

The argument that this thread is for Sorbon is ridiculus since the moment that start giving bogus information about the law wich are afecting me and thosusand of graduates and students. REMOVE THE AFIRMATION ABOUT THE LAW in France and you will not see me on this forum anymore, and you can continue disscusing till the end of the times about Robert de Sorbon. YOUR COUNTRY IS FULL FREE TO ACCEPT WHATEVER CONSIDER you are a GREAT AND SOVERIENG YOUNG NATION, but none public worker on europe are giving any information about your own laws being false.

Wich is incredible is to say like you "I do not take care of this L- codes, first you give me a translation to english". We are doing the the work to speak in english but if you need the information just go yourself on the web page of the france government and do the work. If you want the news go for it, is Mr Contreras who is telling about imaginarian list of universites, he must prove what he is telling showing TO YOU the translations of the code de l'Education where he found what he is claiming.

In order not to see this, wich clear like the water, another person say that for the mere fact of telling this, them we are “Sorbonites”, but those who remaind them in the bogus afirmation about the Ecole-Université should be considered like a “Contreritas”. But in the middle of this battle between Sorbonitas Vs Contreritas there is on the game the good name and reputation of rest of the privated instituions of Higher Education on France. Ok this is only a colateral injures.

 

A while back in word-space if not in time, someone asked if ODA decisions were subject to judicial review. Yes, suit can be filed in the circuit court of Marion County, Oregon.

However, Oregon law expressly allows ODA to rely on an AACRAO determination if we want to (OAR 583-050-0011(7)), so I can't imagine what the grounds for such a suit would be. Wickedly believing AACRAO?

I do not know in which venue a suit against AACRAO or the Canadian government would be filed.

If Sorbon thinks AACRAO or the Canadian government has made an erroneous determination, all they/he/it need to do is provide documentation supporting their view. ODA simply sends this material to AACRAO for review.

 

Hi Alan:
Please pardon the interruption of this thread. I have a question for you at the end of the interminable "Oregon and Kennedy Western" thread. Given the weirdness that took over that thread, I thought you might (quite justifiably) ignore it now. Please skip over the quinanities and take a look at my latest post there. Thanks.
Janko

----------------------------------------------

OK. Back to topic. Bye.

 

About AACRAO and Canadian Gvt.

Dear Mr. Contreras,

Thank you for your posting

Where could we see the décision of the Canadian Gvt.?

It seems to me odd as, as far as I know, Education is run by the Canadian Provinces (at least by Québec) not by the federal Canadiangovernment, but I could be wrong.

When could we see the AACRAO report as you said it is in the public domaine.

Also Mr. Contreras what do you respond to the facts published by another member about the problems with the AACRAO statement ?

I think that you can probably answer personally about the 5 US evaluators, which are according to you and AACRAO all run by the same person. Could you confirm it please?

Very respectfully yours,

 

In light of all the loud and angry rhetoric coming out of Europe attacking Alan Contreras and the AACRAO, and implicitly or explicitly defending this Sorbon thing, it might be useful to point out something.

Mr. Contreras' original post began:

Please note that the inquiry concerned 'Universite Francophone Robert de Sorbon'.

http://www.sorbonedu.com/

So all the noise about ecoles doesn't even really address what Alan reports that the AACRAO told him about the universite.

Now click on the 'Page in English' link on the left side of the French-language 'Universite Francophone Robert de Sorbon' webpage at the URL above.

Where does it take you? To the 'Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon'.

So apparently this thing is being marketed as a French ecole to Anglophones, but as a universite to Francophones. (Does the French say that it's a North American university?)

But the thing that remains constant is the 'VAE' rhetoric, the L-numbers, the credential evaluators and the claims of RA-equivalence and US immigration benefits.

 

I'll post the ACCRAO text this week, sorry for delay.

ODA is only concerned with entities that issue credentials that are asserted to be equivalent to U.S. college degrees. That is the only aspect of the Sorbon operation that we asked AACRAO to evaluate.

The Canadian agency that concluded that Sorbon was not a degree-granter is called the Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials. It is a joint evaluation unit operated by the Council of Ministers of Education of Canada.

I regret that owing to active litigation (not involving ODA), I can't go into more detail about the rogue evaluator.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to get a AACRAO document from AACRAO directly? That way, one then could not come back in here to say that "the document did not/does not say what someone claims it does say." Might be a sensible approach that might satisfy some quarrelsome types - get it directly from the horse's own mouth. Just a suggestion.

Ho, boy! Some brilliant sleuthing there, Bill! Now, wait and watch out for the tortured (some would say, twisted, circular and painful) explanations and verbal gymnastics from ....... from ...... Oh, well .....

Alan, if and when you have a chance, do give Uncle Janko's q's posted elsewhere, some elaboration. They seem to get to the heart of some of the disputed matters.

Thanks for all that you do.

 

Dear Sir as my opinion about this is well knowed ONLY FOR THE POINT OF THE NAMES, I can not let pass this oportunity to ask you please forgive me if you find it my words rude. It was not my intention to be ofensive against you or your country in any maner.

I hope according with your own words "need to do is provide documentation supporting their view" you soon could say that not to be called universite is not a fault. By the way I think that your Institut of Masachussets (to much ssss for me I do not know where are going) is a great instituion, also in France, even if is called Institut.

Sincerilly.