Robert de Sorbon evaluation

Dear Dr. Alan;

I want to know, if under the Oregon Jus, the Sorbon or any other institution of higher education that was evaluate by ODA, has the right to appeal the ODA administrative resolution, in maybe, some Court of Appellations, or some comparable Oregon Justice institution ?

 

VERY LONG, BAD ENGLISH BUT NECESSARY.

In france there is 2 kind of instituions of postsecondary. The one is the public French public universities, the second are privated instituions of Enseignement Supérieur Privé, this is like this since 1875,loi du 12 Juliet et au décrete du 25 Janvier 1876 régissant les Etablissments Libres d'Enseignament Supérieur en France, as you can see it starts not 2 days ago. Actually the French government does not give any acreditation to any privated institution for the mere fact that they are PRIVATES, but this not mean that this instituions are working freelly, they are under the supervision of the LOCAL FRENCH PUBLIC UNIVERSITY on each area.

To start a course, a private ecole or Institut need to send to the public french university all the programs, photocopy of the credentials of the teachers, criminal history report of the personal, inspection of the security and capacity of the place where you are teaching and so many more. After receiving this them the Recteur of the french public universiy will give the permission to start working. So as you can see the french government is not looking to other place. This process is the same anually. If you have PhD in quantity you can call your self FREE FACULTY. They are not using words like academy of cooking, they are using the words of the postsecondary instituion, the privated ecole and Institut are not linked with a kindergarden by order of the government, THEY ARE LINKED WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF THEIR OWN AREA, in order to work.

Which is fanny is that an USA instituion is claiming that a french instituion is not legal because they are not giving state degrees, YES NO ONE USA UNIVERSITY IS GIVING STATE (national government) DEGREES, ALL OF YOU ARE PRIVATED, so following this wonderfull argument all the USA degrees are not valid in any country all over the world with Ministry of Education, due that you don not have this. USA can say nothing on it is not an USA question


FORGETR FOR ONE MOMENT ROBERT DE SORBON and all of you tray to understand how it works this. The term "universite" is reserved in exclusive for public universities, this not mean that the privates ecoles and Insituts are not in the universitarian level, in USA you can have a College and a University, in France the government take it for itself the term universite (university) and let the term Ecole Superieur and Institut des Hautes Etudes (College) for privated instituions of higher education. Alain said French: law allows only certain schools to use the term "university" this is a bad faith conclusion and bogus, there is no certain shools, such instituions does not exist in French there is no "certains" ONLY PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES can be called like this.

2) bogus afirmation: "Sorbon is not on the French list of universities authorized to use life experience as the basis for issuance of academic credit". Not only Sorbon, any privated institution of postsecondary is listed in any place, there is no list of french universities aproved to give VAE, just becasue VAE is for all kind of institutions. Of course the goverment can tell you in wich publics universities you can obtain this, but they can not tell you in wich privated instituions can you do it just becasue THEY DO NOT HAVE THIS INFORMATION, this belongs to the PRIVATED INSTITUIONS.

In France there is no list of privated universities, becasue the term university means PUBLIC. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND UNIVERSITY = PUBLIC, ECOLE AND INSTITUT = PRIVATED. With a number enought of PhD inside, a privated institution can be called by law FREE FACULTY, this is what the law reserve for privated instituion. If you do not like this is not problem for you, you are not living on France. Now it seems that the foreign european countries must do their educationals systems according with a public worker on Oregon.

Acording with this marvellus conclusion of Mr Contreras in France there is no privated postsecondary instituions of higher education, in despite of the thousand of students going every day to their classes and the approval to be opened by each public university give it to the privated insitutions in each jurisdiction. There is no private instituions of higher education just because Mr. Contreras does not want to see them. But who can take care about the nonses you are telling monsieur Contreras in France?, Do you think you are so important to move the French system of education?. With independency of the status of Robert de Sorbon one thing is clear YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT EUROPE diferents educationals systems. You are giving miss information about the educational process on French just to tray to be the winner in your particular false ego war against Robert de Sorbon. Go against Rober de Sorbon if you consider that is your duty, but please be inteligent for one time and do not speak like a cowboy on a film. The main question about Sorbon is : ARE THEY ACTUALLY AUTHORIZED BY THE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY ON ITS AREA TO BE OPENED AND START GIVEN COURSES?.. .

If the answer is YES them they are legal, but if the answer is NO, this not mean that they are ilegal, WHAY?. The law say that you must send to your university under wich control your privated instituion are, a number of requeriments, if you want to know it, I can send it to you originals documents from other universities, but ONLY IN THE CASE that you are going TO GIVE AND CONDUCT CLASESS.

What happend now with Robert de Sorbon?, is very easy THEY ARE NOT GIVING CLASESS, they are legal registered according with the educational code of the education, this code say that IF YOU ARE NOT GIVING REGULAR CLASESS you do not need to apply for this permission and can continue with your activities like a privated instituion of Higher education in other areas like a conferences, short courses, investigation, etc...

What is them the finnal conclusion?: Robert de Sorbon, if is not yet opened like a class provider there is nothing on the law that say that if you have a group of PhD in your Ecole, you can not be called FREE FACULTY and give degrees by the VAE or for convalidation with other providers of higher education, due that you are not giving classes.

They are using, I AM AFRAID, AND THIS IS THE REAL QUESTION, a legal loophole. Any case by the moment. THIS IS ALL, FINAL CONCLUSION. Now the ball is on the roof of the french educational authorities, if they will introduce a reform on the Code of the Education that do not allow to a instituion not giving regular courses to give it any kind of degree. Till I know they are making now the steps with their local public university, to declare the begining of activities, HOW THEY WILL DO THIS? is a good question that must be resolved by the Academy of Poitiers wich has the jurisdiction over them, neither you nor I.

Finally: a Ecole Superier or Institute des Hautes Etudes giving regular clasess and with the control and authoritation of their local public university to do it, and with a number of PhD, can be called FREE FACULTY and can award degrees, so valid like your degrees on USA for France people. I think with this written in my very bad english all of you will have more clear what is the educational proces on France and what is happend with Sorbon. I am journalist expert on education I know perfectly the law on france so if you have any question I am at your service.

 

Milotach,

Merci pour ce poteau. Comme haut-parleur d'une autre langue, votre anglais n'est pas ce mauvais, et de toute façon, on peut raisonnablement comprendre ce que vous dites.

(Thanks for this post. As a speaker of another language, your English is not that bad, and in any case, one can reasonably understand what you are saying.)

No. To the best of my information, Alan Contreras concluded no such thing.

He was simply relaying facts to us in his thread-opening post and other posts, that:

- the AACRAO has serious reservations about Robert de Sorbone

- AACRAO, an authoritative source on international degree evaluations, based its evaluation on the French government documents provided by the "Sorbon Object" and found them wanting and unconvincing

- that he had been informed that the Canadian government has also researched the nature of Robert de Sorbon and (it - the Canadian Government) also concluded that Robert de Sorbon is not a genuine degree-granting institution.

Forgive me if I am missing something you said or are trying to say or highlight.

 

Dear Jake thanks for your tolerance with my english. What I was traing to show is perfectly explained at the end of the post. There you can see what is a privated instituion of postsecondary in France.

Alan made a salad with the terms university and the french legislation, and was establishing a dangerous conclusion for the privated french instituions of postsecondary based in the argument that they do not use the word university. If you have clear that a Ecole Superieur or a Institut des Hautes Etudes working under the control of the public universities, are legal and their degrees are valid, them you will be right. In fact in France employers are more apreciative with the privated degrees. Just put on google Insitut des Hautes Etudes or Ecole Superieur and you will see a lot of them full legal working according with the Code de l'Education. And do not forget tha if the Academy of Poitiers will give it to Sorbon the rights to starting courses, them they will be complitly legal also. And finnaly do not forget that Monsieur Prade of the AUAP is former Jugde at the Paris Court and Chevalier du Mérit National in France. Who can have more information about the laws in France, a former Jugde or a USA public worker?.

I explained clear that it seems that there is a legal empty on the case of Robert de Sorbon, but the only authority that can say who they are are not the Canadian government or the AACRAO, the Academy of Poitiers in France will give it to them validate or not in a short time.

So my opinion is that one should be very carefull with some afirmations did it on a public forum, maybe others full legal french privated instituions can starting legal actions if they feel that someone is giving a bogus information about their degrees, just becasue they are called Ecole or Institut and not university. Alan was mixing complitly the status of the privated Ecoles and Instituts with the afaire of the Sorbon.

Any case my final intention is not to say something about the Sorbon is to protect all the legal privated instituions of postsecondary on France about bad understandings of our european laws in France.

 

milotach

Milotach,

So a "free faculty" private institution can operate and awared degrees without having to wait for the POINTERS UNIVERSITY to say it can?
From what I was able to comprehend from Dr. Contreras post, was that Robert Sourbuns may have filed for accreditation but may not have been granted the authority as of yet. I am also refering to what seems to be a letter from POINTERS (on robert website).
By "free faculty" it seems that Robert Sorbon has a list of PhDs on faculty, so this would be a basis for obtaining private ecole status as well, but with the huge legal loophole of not actually having to offer any courses thus allows Robert Sorbon to actually award degrees?

Fascinating case.

 

Only Sorbon was disscussed, not all the private institutions in France. AACRAO and the Canadian government have concluded that Sorbon is not a valid university. It does not have the authority to grant degrees. Perhaps they are wrong but I'll believe their conclusion until some more credible authority states otherwise.

 

Yeah, but us americanos (north and south, so you too, bullet) are just a bunch of cowboys. A buried insult is still an insult. And Sore Buns is still a joke. And as for knowing French laws, hell, Pierre Laval was a lawyer. Oh, good.

Somehow, I'll trust AACRAO, the ODA, the Canadian government (despite Paul Martin), and countless direct responses by French government official to queries by our fellow posters ahead of eurocondescension, no matter how loquacious.

I'm not a 100% fan of the ODA list. But Alan got Sore Buns dead to rights.

 

Yeah, but us americanos (north and south, so you too, bullet) are just a bunch of cowboys. A buried insult is still an insult. And Sore Buns is still a joke. And as for knowing French laws, hell, Pierre Laval was a lawyer. Oh, good.

Somehow, I'll trust AACRAO, the ODA, the Canadian government (despite Paul Martin), and countless direct responses by French government official to queries by our fellow posters ahead of eurocondescension, no matter how loquacious.

I'm not a 100% fan of the ODA list. But Alan got Sore Buns dead to rights.

 

No Bill not only Sorbon is discused, in your words you say again Sorbon is not a valid university and use again the word university, so none postsecondary instituion in France can be called university, as I explained whay. The question will be resolved in a very easy way with independency of the affair Sorbon. Will monsieur Contreras acept a degree from a Ecole Superieur or Institut des Hautes Etudes giving regular clasees with the supervision of the french public university according with the Code de l'Education of France? or simply he will reject it and will put his famous label of diploma mill, just because this institution can not be called university and for sure will not be in the imaginarian list of universities in France. Only public universities can be found in a list, the argument that an instituion privated is not on a list is BOGUS. Any case a French instituion could be called university in english due that the word that can not be used is universite in french.

Can anyone from monsieur contreras office to answer this single question: I am an imaginarian MBA from the Institut des Hautes Etudes Economiques et Comerciales from Paris or Bordeaux or Lyon,or a similar institution I am not listed in the imaginarian list of universities but the institut is working according with the french code de l'education and is registered with the local public university for starting the activities. Will Oregon allow the use of my degree inside of the state?. Look what a single question, if the answer is YES them I will present my apologizes and I will recognize that all is a mistake due to my bad understanding of the english.

 

milotach,

Your problems are with, and should be addressed, to:

- a. the AACRAO, which is (without a doubt, save in many mill shill's minds), an authoritative source on international degree evaluations

- b. the French government

- c. the Canadian government

- d. maybe Robert de Sorbone itself (et les autres Institutes).

You can rail against Alan Contreras and ODA (and even the good 'ole USA) all you want but that will not change the minds of a, b, and c above. You may get some brownie points with d above.

Thanks.

 

Start with

-b. the French government: Absolutly agree with the French government, we are europeans and degrees coming from legal instituion on France are legal in Europe. The French government has a very good Code de l'Education and France is full of wonderfull public universities, and privated Ecoles and Instituts. May be you in USA are having the problem with them due that you have no idea about the eductional french system.
-c. Canadian government:je ne suis pas des citoyens du Canada
-d. Robert de Sobon: atipical instituion from France, under investigation. Other Institutes, may be you again are having the problem, for us in europe the rest of Insititutes are full legal and not so valid like your univerisities, more valid due that is not neccesary a convalidation process for european degrees between members of the EU, a degree from USA must past in many europe countries a convalidation process.
-a. AACRAO nothing with them, they can do what they want if they are using the truth for do it. They have a good reasons to look Sorbon in that way if they are not having yet the approval to be open by the Academy of Poitiers, but that is nothing for the rest of the legitimal institution on France.

And finnaly could you answer the question on the previous thread about the MBA and not tray to scape between the trees.

 

janko

Yes - UNCLE JANKO ,

Che, tio janko! I am a american as well.........yes! Remember I love the americanitos from the USA, americans make the best products that average argentinos can buy when we fly to New York and you have some of the best "rap star fights" on the TV!!! Where else but america do people care that rap stars have fight with each other??
I agree with you, this Robert Sourbuns or Sorebuns is very strange what they are doing.
An official letter from the Academie of Poitiers will keep the mouth closed.
If the AACRAO and the Canadian Government have done the correct job, there can be no doubt to the conclusion. The conclusion is they are making claims that is not the correct ones (maybe as milotach says a loop hole).
We need to be nice to the french, thanks to them we have "
french fries "

Salud!!!!

 

"Atypical French institution!" says Milotach

That's been exactly our point (euphemistically stated) about Sore Buns.

But Milotach presumes in his bloody arrogance that as Americans north or south we are ipso facto ignorant about anything in Yoorup. He begs off on bothering to comprehend what the Canadian government says on the grounds that he's not a Canadian citizen--but we groundlings don't understand Europe because we're not Europeans. He thinks we don't understand Sore Buns because as Americans we are ignorant about the other NAMES used for European tertiary institutions (such as Hochschule, etc.). Finally, he claims we don't understand European convalidation of degrees.

Bull!

Funny thing. Agilham is from Europe (sort of). Professor Kennedy is from Europe (sort of). Triggersoft is from Europe. JLV is from Europe. Mario is from Europe. But they don't resort to obfuscation and insult to prop up an entity like Sore Buns. (Oh, Trig, can you just imagine what a real German university would do with an egregious Titelmuehle like Sore Buns? Get thee to Appenzell!)

Yes, but WHY don't they resort to obfuscation and insult?

Just because their English is good?

No.

Just because their intentions are good.

La dracu.



Janko the damned Romanian cowboy*



*I paraphrase a sobriquet of the late Mr Roosevelt; no, not that Roosevelt.

 

Ok. "No tray to scape between the trees" at all! The forest is too dense with thick undergrowth and intractacble foliage for me to do my customary 10 second-100 meter dash through it!

Since the question is addressed to Alan Contreras and anyone from the ODA, have you asked or approached the office directly? Why not go through the clearly-defined ODA approval process?

Mind you, I am not speaking for the ODA - nor do I want to or need to - but the process for obtaining an answer to your question is very clearly outlined on its website, as can be seen from the following:

Source:
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/faq.html

"How does ODA evaluate degrees issued in a foreign country?"

"ODA does not evaluate foreign degrees; it evaluates whether the college approval standards in a foreign country are equivalent to U.S. accreditation. Equivalency means that the country has an evaluation system in place, that the system has standards intended to ensure that colleges are of good quality, and that the standards are actually applied to schools that claim approval from the country in question. At a minimum, degrees must be usable as credentials within the approving country in order to be valid for public or licensed employment in Oregon. See ORS 348.609(a), OAR 583-050-0011(7).

"Acceptance of Foreign Degrees - OAR 583-050-0031(2)
A claimant of a non-U.S. degree issued by a degree supplier not accredited by a U.S. accreditor may submit to the Office information proving that the supplier issuing the degree has the following characteristics.

(a) The supplier is operating legally in its host country.
(b) The host country has a postsecondary approval system equivalent to U.S. accreditation.
(c) The supplier has been approved through the demonstrable application of appropriate standards by the host country’s accreditor equivalent.
(d) All degrees issued by the supplier are legally valid for use within the host country."

Nota bene:

"A claimant of a non-U.S. degree issued by a degree supplier not accredited by a U.S. accreditor may submit to the Office information proving that the supplier issuing the degree has the following characteristics ..........

Got it?

Now, if we are talking hypotheticals, who knows? Go to the source and check with the Oregon ODA, please.

Hope this helps. Thanks.

 

Uncle, you are a riot! How could Milotach possibly entertain such an unflattering opinion of us when some of us cannot survive a day without getting our full dose of the greasy, high-octane, high-cal, high-fat Yoorupian ummmm "French..... errrr, Freedom fries?"

Why are so many Americano McDonald's establishments obscuring the Parisien's view of the Champs Elysees - Hotel in Paris?

Surely, Yoorup et les citoyens Francaise beckon us, no?

LOL

 

Thanke you very much this is the only what Iwas looking for. I will take note of this points very carefull:
a) The supplier is operating legally in its host country.
(b) The host country has a postsecondary approval system equivalent to U.S. accreditation.
(c) The supplier has been approved through the demonstrable application of appropriate standards by the host country’s accreditor equivalent.
(d) All degrees issued by the supplier are legally valid for use within the host country."

Sincerilly thanks again. I apologize for any ofensive that someone could fine on my words but there was some strong imprecisions that could afect to thousands of students in the privated french instituions of higher education with the affaire of Sorbon. Now with your help I know better your process and I hope than with my threads you have also clear something more about the french educational system and the problem with the Sorbon so not to have in the future the same arguments on it.

 

The AACRAO and the Canadian government apparently disagree with you. No matter how many times you say that they are mistaken I don't see why I should believe an anonymous poster on the Internet over the AACRAO, the ODA, and the Canadian government. (Not to mention that I seem to recall that people received information from the French governemnt corroborating the conclusion that Sorbon is bogus.)

 

I was thinking that it was an educational discussion, not a patriotic discussion. That you have no good understand of the french law is an evidence, but I am not going to start again this. Any case if you has been feeling like a USA citizen ofended for any of my coments, you are putting out of the context my words and adding your part of petrol, any case I pray you to excuse me like an european citizen due that it was not my intention to ofend any nationality. I like your country, I have been there some times, unfortunatly for you I am vegetarian so your Burguers are the devil for me, but with this little exception, I like the rest. I am using a mac computer and wearing jeans. By the way the cowboy reference is for the speed to shoot without looking before, not linked in any manner with the ignorance. My son with 6 years old has a plastic colt and play like a cowboy in our house on the country where we are living.

 

Whay are you bringing this again Bill. This is the answer did it to me for a question about the rest of the privated instituions of postsecondary in France, this is not for the Sorbon. I can not understsand what you mean on it. Canadian government or AACRAO agree or not with me, we are talking about diferent questions, I am not disccusing about if Robert is legal or not, I was requering information about what will be the process for the rest of the privated instituions. Please read all again. I said that if AACRO is saing this may be they have a good reasons for it. Any case excuse me BIll not to post more for today, it is hard to write so much in a foreign languaje.

 

Ah, I feel the earth move under Milotach's feet. Now it's about other French private tertiary institutions--not the entity we've been discussing. I get it. In Detroit we call it driving around Belle Isle. Take the long way round. Get unnamed legit French institutions applauded here and then claim that the rising tide will float the Sore Buns boat.
Not bloody likely.