Republicans still believe Trump's election loss was the result of a rigged election

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Bill Huffman, Apr 12, 2021.

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  1. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Active Member

    You said that "most" of them were orthodox. They weren't orthodox by the standards of their time. They're not orthodox by the standards of our time. That's not really something to debate. Maybe they were "influenced" by the Judeo-Christian worldview but they seem to have had more of a non-Western viewpoint on religion. Something like Hinduism or Buddhism but without the reincarnation aspect.
     
  2. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Are you completely sure unfettered capitalism (and especially market worship the GOP subscribes to) and Christianity are even compatible? I quoted the Catechism here already, the (normative Catholic) teaching on the Seventh Commandment sounds to the left of Elisabeth Warren. Pope Francis explicitly referred to unrestricted capitalist ideology as "idolatry". And I fully agree.

    Of course, the Church also explicitly rejects Communist ideology, and affirms private property (with caveats). You would do well here and remember your Young Pioneer training: "socialism" is clearly defined as public ownership of means of production. NO ONE in American politics calls for anything remotely like this. GOP redefines the term as "raising taxes on the Holy JobCreators"; this is one sign of a Mooby the Golden Calf cult they are. No wonder they embraced Trump; the guy looks and acts like Mooby incarnate.
     
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  3. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Sanders did. Again, free public education is NOT "socialism". See Germany, France, Scandinavia, and in general most of the globe.

    Improving the labor's bargaining position is MARKET-BASED way for the government to raise wages. Of course, Mooby says that helping the poor is bad, since they are being punished by the omniscient Holy Free Market. I'll go on the limb and say this is hogwash.
     
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  4. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    The one propping up the twice-divorced sex-predator grifting liar, obviously. As opposed to the one led by never divorced practicing Christian. Water is dry.
     
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  5. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    For context, it can be said that lack of an independent and non-corrupt judicial system is Ukraine's biggest obstacle to reform. Poroshenko, by many measures our most effective President, ever, was not very well-equipped to tackle it. He himself is an oligarch, and is used to shady ways to get what he wants. Instead of keeping pressure on Porokh to continue reforms (as Obama did and as would any other admin do, Democrat or Republican), Trump actually contributed to the problem, culminating in sending Rudy clown car to seek further deals. Remember that Trump fired Ambassador Ivanovic to undermine US DOJ policy of promoting anti-corruption agenda, to get some favors in return from Rudy's contacts in the country. This is nothing short of diabolical; it makes me mad hearing "Trump strong, gave us Javelins" mantra from uninformed people.
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Point taken but policies is what maters.
    We are not talking about a monarch.
    I don't know who will be leading GOP in 2024.
    Maybe this is not directly related to the tread. But my focus is on 2022 conservative representation Dems or GOP in the house.
    Who will vote on issues and not party line always.
    So far I can't say I see anything that is majorly disturbing and centrist president Biden seem to not cave to radical left.
    And I'm glad he is working with both parties. It was disappointing to see oil pipe line and some related projects canceled.
    I loved Trumps support of Israel and
    helping to achieve some historical peace agreements.
    I loves what president Trump admin did for Veterans.
    And in many other areas.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    1. They're entirely orthogonal. One can be a capitalist Christian, a socialist Christian, a capitalist not-a-Christian, or a socialist not-a-Christian.

    2. The GOP does not subscribe to market worship, not even close.

    3. The Roman Catholic Church is just one denomination and doesn't speak for all Christians.
     
  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    1. Not entirely, no. Market fundamentalism is idolatry. Ayn Rand great man worship is incompatible with Christianity - which she fully admits. You can be capitalist Christian, but there are some ideologies that elevate "capitalism" and/or "market" honest Christian can't hold.
    2. There is a cultish aspect. Money worship, perhaps.
    3. No. But they have one of the longest intellectual traditions over there; in this particular case, what they say is basically what the Gospels say. Most other denominations preach similar stuff, maybe just not as clearly stated.
     
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    It really all comes down to the perspective of the viewer. I would tend to agree with you but I know Holy Roller Baptists, for example, that would disagree vehemently. This point of view is much more fair than trying to paint all Islamists with the Islam Terrorist brush though as some are prone to do. I knew some co-workers that held the Moslem faith. They were very fine people. They were as "Christian" in their treatment of others than any Christian I ever met, to turn a phrase.

    These assertions from the right biased media that our government is based on Christian ideals is ignoring the fact that what our government is really based on is a sense of ideals how we should treat each other. It just sounds much better to the Christian ear to hear it called "Christian" ideals. On the other hand, this is ignoring inconvenient facts like originally only male land owners could vote in some areas and Blacks were only worth 3.5 of a white man. Also it seems to ignore the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
     
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  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    1. Again, market fundamentalism is orthogonal to Christianity. You can change the term again if you wish, but it won't turn magically that into an equivalence. I'd agree that being a stalwart Ayn Rand aficionado is incompatible with Christianity, but since that's not the same thing as either being a capitalist or being a market fundamentalist, that's irrelevant.
    2. The cultish part of the GOP is the QAnon part. Their thing (as far as I can see) isn't money worship, it's reflexive contrarianism.
    3. In the Gospels, it's made pretty clear that worldly and spiritual matters should be distinct, and the former eschewed in favor of the latter. That's not an endorsement of any corner of the political map. But again, that the Roman Catholic Church is big and old doesn't mean they speak for all Christians, or even most of them. (Or, from what I can see, even an awful lot of Catholics.)
     
  11. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    1. Some of the reasons Randism is incompatible with Christianity are shared widely in today's "conservative" movement. Besides, I'd argue "fundamentalist" anything is not very Christian. Communists elevated material things above the spiritual, and so do many market worshippers.
    2. No, I'd argue that the GOP is the cultish part of the GOP. Tax Cuts dogma, all that jazz. QAnon is a different, allied cult.
    3. Spiritual matters elevated above the worldly is not the whole of it. In this form, it is rather Gnostic. Gospels are pretty clear that you show your spirituality is through concern for your neighbor, specifically the poor, and expressly - their material needs. Catholic catechism speaks for most Christians for the simple reason that it agrees with these parts of the Gospel, not the other way around. To be clear, this is not endorsing socialist (collective ownership) vs. capitalist (private ownership) principle of organizing the economy; I'd say most Catholics are Capitalist under sane definition (just like almost all Democrats).

    “The worship of the ancient golden calf has returned in a new and ruthless guise in the idolatry of money and the dictatorship of an impersonal economy lacking a truly human purpose.” - Pope Francis.
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    This is a good example to illustrate the idea of a "living constitution". It's all well and good to argue, a la J. Scalia, that we have to interpret the text exactly as the Founders understood it to mean. There's a lot to recommend that approach; indeed, it should be the default. But in the case of religion's place in the nation's governance, the Founders themselves disagreed sharply as to what the words meant and how they were to be applied. So it falls to the Supreme Court to interpret a very broad clause. Those who say "established church" means no more than "no official state church" are correct but what, exactly, is meant by "state church"? Financial support of any sort? Or just a formal pronouncement? If you believe, as I do, that "establishment" includes "support", then the clause does indeed erect a wall of separation and that's been our historic approach.
     
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Here's an article from an extreme right wing biased source about the Arizona audit that is just finishing up. According to mediabiasfactcheck.com the source, Arizona Mirror, is as right biased as possible and not to be trusted generally because of this extreme bias. I'm still going to link the article though because it is very critical of the bogus audit going on in Arizona, which should improve the the trustworthiness of this article, I believe.

    https://www.azmirror.com/2021/06/26/audit-leader-doug-logan-appears-in-conspiracy-theorist-election-film/

    The article contains some original reporting about the whole mess. The article says in part that the owner of Cyber Ninjas is a QANON believer and took part in the making of a silly movie about 2020 election fraud.
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    The problem here is that it is expected to be attacked big time, which is also what is happening.
    I lost interest and no longer following.
    But I'm sure your and Dem's critiques are anticipated and noting less is expected by people who are running this thing.
     
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    There actually IS NO "mess". The Arizona election was conducted correctly and there is no reason to suspect significant error, let alone fraud. The only mess is the mess the Trumpistas themselves have created.
     
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I thought I made it clear that the article is NOT a "Dem critique".

    Here's what mediabiasfactcheck.com says about the Arizona Mirror.

    quote:
    Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy
    ...
    Overall, we rate the American Mirror Questionable based on extreme right-wing bias and the promotion of misleading propaganda. (9/21/2016) Updated (D. Van Zandt 11/28/2018)
    end quote

    That is your favorite kind of source is it not?
     
  17. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    It is DESIGNED to be "attacked big time". Audit elements I mentioned are not optional; auditor credibility & independence and valid methodology are needed precisely so results won't be "attacked" later. Arizona thing was such, from the outset, that the results WILL be worthless no matter what they find or do not find. The ONLY purpose of this charade is to get "attacked" and to agitate the easily agitated in the GOP camp. Such as yourself.

    Also, I believe it is spelled "bigly". Covfefe!
     
  18. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Never Trumpers are among GOP as well.
    I lost interest in this AZ thing for the reasons mentioned earlier.
    I'm only interested in valid, unbiased ethical audits.
    There is one thing that initially got my interest and it was the willingness to investigate conspiracy theories. It made me curious especially the
    resistance and roadblocks that looked like someone wanted this to stop because there is something to hide.
     
  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The only "valid, unbiased ethical audits" are those conducted routinely by the state and local elections officials following the November election and they found NO evidence of significant fraud or error. Trump lost. Period.
     
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