Republicans still believe Trump's election loss was the result of a rigged election

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Bill Huffman, Apr 12, 2021.

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  1. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    You know that Russian interference is a fact. You argue as it is a fantasy, on par with what the Right is spewing right now on the topic of elections. (Not just spewing; going as far as harassing and threating death to various local elections officials; in other words, making their darnedest to break democracy, the very thing that made this country what it is. In other words, they hate America.)

    Making arguments without fainest regard for what's true or not is technically known as "bullshitting":
    http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

    What is interesting that right-wing personas (even manifestly non-paid ones, like Lerner here) and Russian vatnik personas (even manifestly non-paid ones) BS in the exact some way. It's uncanny. There's a significant overlap, but even Trumpers with no knowledge of or interest in Russian politics STILL bullsh1t in distinctly vatnik way. I'm not sure I have a full picture of what this might indicate.
     
  2. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Stanislav, It has been broadcasted on Fox News time and time again, almost every time they mention Russian interference on our 2016 election the Fox News broadcasters turn it into another example of the stupid Democrats trying to make up lame excuses for them losing the 2016 presidential election. This has been ingrained into the Fox News audience for over 4 years. The Republicans that only watch Fox News believe it is true. Therefore it is logically very reasonable for Lerner to believe both that Russia tried to interfere in the election and that Democrats have been using that as a lame excuse for losing the election both at the same time.

    So when Rich stated that only the Republicans are lying about elections, Lerner jumped in to defend the Republicans pointing out that Dems lied about the 2016 election. What he didn't realize and probably still doesn't realize (I'll guess) is that that is just another Republican lie. Russia stealing the election is not used by Democrats as an excuse as to why we lost the 2016 election.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  3. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Lerner is someone intimately familiar with how propaganda works. He knows what the "troll factory" is, he knows the names of Prigozhin and Sechin and Peskov and Vekselberg and Deripaska and Misha the Jap. He knows that "Rusdian orphan adoptions" mean lobbying against Magnitsky Act sanctions on officials involved with torture.He knows what Paul Manafort did before 2017 and what kind of people he associated with in Ukraine and Russia. He knows how little credibility Rudy's sources in Ukraine have. He knows how corrupt was the prosecutor Biden helped remove. In short, he has enough context, and if he still believes Fox it's by choice. Moreover, he has the facts they are omitting, yet omits them to while parroting Fox lines.
    Many Russians have this feeling that is OK to fiv and troll in defense of the Motherland (how they see it). And yeah, they are convinced the opposition does the same. It's something they were deliberately taught in the past 30 years. I think Trump taught GOP partisans the same lessons. Everyone is an amateur Kellyanne, as long as it triggers the libs.
     
  4. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Interesting, I had not considered the possibility that he was aware that the things he was saying were not true. That would explain a lot though. I will have to stew on that possibility.
     
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Is the troll fed yet?
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I read what you guys saying about Lerner. You give me to mach consideration.
    The truth is I forget what I posted about a day or two ago.
    I hope you never took me seriously.

    до побачення - you've successfully shot the messenger.

    The throll is gone
    The throll is gone away
    The throll is gone, baby
    The throll is gone away

    You know you done me wrong, baby
    And you'll be sorry someday
    The throll is gone
    It's gone away from me
    The throll is gone, baby
    The throll is gone away from me
    Although, I'll still live on

    But so lonely I'll be
    The throll is gone
    It's gone away for good
    All the throll is gone
    Baby, it's gone away for good
    Someday I know I'll be open-armed baby
    Just like I know, I know I should

    You know, I'm free, free now, baby
    I'm free from your spell
    Oh, free, free, free now, baby
    I'm free from your spell
    And now that it's all over
    All that I can do is wish you well
     
  7. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    BB King deserves more respect than that. Although I must admit that it is an excellent reaction that would be taught in troll school
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The old way Republicans handled elections:
    • Fire up the base
    • Suppress voting from potential Democrats
    • Get foreign help
    • Nullify results
    The new way Republicans will handle elections:
    • Elections? Who needs those?
    • Eliminate limits on political donations
    • Buy politicians--it's already legal bribery, just come straight out with it
    • Rich Whites fire up poor whites and keep them enflamed, even if it kills them. (See DeSantis, Ron)
    • Even more so with White supremacy and White grievance
    • Retain power despite losing elections and being in the minority (see Gerry, Elbridge and Citizens United)

    This is how 2022 is going to play out. Republican candidates for the House and Senate will garner fewer votes than their Democratic opponents, yet they will win control of both houses of Congress. They'll kill the filibuster (now that it's no longer needed) and maintain power despite being in the minority.
     
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  9. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    This bullshitting, not lying. There's a difference. A bullshitter does not care whether what s/he says is true or not, as long as it advances their cause. The Putin school of bullshit states that everyone does it, so it's OK as long as it's for a "noble cause". Convenient feature of this is that propagandists convince the masses to help spreading the propaganda (that in turn control those same masses - a vicious cycle). It's hard to argue with these people, because they might know that they argue in bad faith, but they are CONVINCED that you do the same. Watching Russian TV (or right-wing media) can turn you this way, by design. Even entertainment shows carry poisonous message.
    In short, a typical vatnik may truly believe that "Liberals" are bad, while "Conservatives" are good, and the debate is part of the "war" between sides. And in the just fight, truth is irrelevant. Truth is simply beside the point.

    The problem is, these people are adults, and willful ignorance is not innocent. Especially when it enables wars (Donbass), undermines nations (Jan. 6th), or making global pandemics more deadly (Comrade Abbott, Darth Santis and ilk). So I have little patience for these people. Maybe I'm getting older.
     
    Bill Huffman likes this.
  10. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    This rings true to me. It all makes far more sense now. I was struggling with thoughts of him not reading what others posted (although I still think that is a big part of it but your explanation makes this an ideal response for him), perhaps unable to process information possibly, perhaps who knows what. I think you're exactly right. Much appreciated!
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  12. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I'm surprised. I fully expected the Arizona Fraudit to either never be released or for fake conclusions about scary fraud being put out. Instead they say that Trump lost by 360 more votes than they thought. Not even Fox News is really reporting anything different on their website. No wonder Trump wanted to get the same kind of Fraudit started in Texas. An apparent attempt to change the subject.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Well, except that the real subject is always fundraising....
     
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  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Possibly. The short-and-cheap grift seems to be alive and well.

    Another possibility is more insidious. In order for a minority party to gain and retain power, it needs to cripple the process by which the majority rules. It's why we're seeing so much state-level activity to reduce access to the ballot box. It's why we're seeing so much movement to enable state governments to nullify election results. And I think this--creating real (but completely unsubstantiated) doubts about the election process--contributes to that end.

    At the top of the Republican Party lies great wealth and power. Because politicians can now be bribed legally, that power intends to use that to stay in charge. But there's still that little issue of who gets into office. You know, voting, democracy, all that nonsense. Well, Republicans decided after Romney's defeat--remember the post-election "autopsy"?--that they really didn't have anything to appeal to the majority. But the minority was a rather homogeneous group to whom direct appeals of White supremacy and White grievance could be aimed successfully. You get a strong enough minority willing to support you and you can get close enough in elections to let the other undemocratic processes you enacted (democratically, ironically) get you over the finish line.

    This is exactly what happened--to everyone's surprise--in 2016. Democratic candidates garnered far more votes in Senate races, yet Republicans gained the majority. Ditto for the House. And the Democratic presidential candidate earned about 3.5 million more votes than did her Republican opponent, yet he became president.

    I'm not just saying this is going to happen. I'm saying it already has, and that's BEFORE all of these shenanigans by entrenched Republican governors, legislators, and the judges they appoint, including a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court willing to do whatever it takes to support it. (NB: the SCOTUS has not had a majority appointed by Democrats since 1970. This has been brewing for a long time.)

    I think, in the long run, this will shake out and majority rule will return. But not in my lifetime.
     
    Bill Huffman likes this.
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I think both reasons are true. Fundraising and continuing the attack on democracy are both happening.
     

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