RA + specialized/professional accrediation in professional fields is a must!

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Lerner, Nov 12, 2005.

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  1. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Regionally Accredited Academic Degrees are well respected.

    Regionally Accredited Universities that are granting degrees in professional and specialty areas such as engineering and technology, psychology and other professional degrees that have no Professional Accreditation from appropriate agency are sub standard.
    and may be viewed as professional degree mills.

    US RA professional degrees that are not ABET, APA, AMA etc accredited are professional degree mills and often of reduced practical and professional quality out of touch with industry standards and requirements.
    There is growing consensus among ABET, AMA, APA and other specialty and professional accreditation specialists - evaluators that view such degrees as substandard and incompatible with industry and professional education standards.

    Such degrees are actually holding an unaccredited status for professional recognition and registration in international professional registries and national professional registries in dozens of countries.

    Wile mostly RA accredited universities given the opportunity to upgrade the standard and match it demanding advancement industry and professional practices including leading academic professional institutes such as MIT.

    The academic value of non professional education
    Provided by RA academic institutions is well respected and is the prerequisite for the entry in to Professional Accreditation program.

    Learner
     
  2. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Are today's undergraduate engineering graduates better prepared

    http://www.ed.psu.edu/cshe/abet/ec2000.html

    Center for the Study of Higher Education


    quote:

    ABET EC2000 Study

    Engineering Change:
    A Study of the Impact of EC2000

    Are today's undergraduate engineering graduates better prepared to be engineers than those who graduated before the inauguration of EC2000?

    The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) has commissioned a team of researchers at the Penn State Center for the Study of Higher Education to assess the impact of the EC2000 accreditation criteria on student learning outcomes (Criterion 3 a-k). The study will focus on seven engineering disciplines:

    aerospace
    chemical
    civil
    computer
    electrical
    industrial
    mechanical
    Forty Institutions participated in the project.

    quote:
    News Release 10/28/05

    ENGINEERING GRADUATES IN 2004 BETTER PREPARED

    THAN GRADUATES OF A DECADE EARLIER

    http://www.ed.psu.edu/cshe/abet/newsrelease.html
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2005
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Harvard University's Psychology Department is not APA-accredited.

    I suppose Harvard is a diploma mill? :rolleyes:
     
  4. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Technicly their psychology degrees are not of the same standard even if they are better or simply to academic. US APA accreditation is the recognized industry standard period.

    If theyir program is not APA their degrees are of alternative value and very respected I wouldn't count their Psychlogy degrees as milled or substandard.

    There are thousands of universities that are not Harvard.

    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2005
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    That's not what you said. You said;

    US RA professional degrees that are not ABET, APA, AMA etc accredited are professional degree mills.

    Harvard is not APA-accredited, therefore, by your standards, they are a professional degree mill.
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Most of unaccredited universities in US in my opinion are degree mills. (some are also diploma mills)
    Are there exeptions? yes.
    Some are on the way to become accredited and legitimate new universities, others are old unaccredited but earned reputation.

    The same rules apply to my post.
    The only change I will make is not all RA, there are some exeptions.

    This is not onlly my view.

    Well some people still call UoP a mill.

    Their use is more limited outside US specially in professional institutions and registries. My friend felt very disapointed when he learned that his degree was regected overseas becuase it wasnt ABET accredited program. He came short of calling it worthless.

    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2005
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    quote from SMU site:

    Accreditation Status
    Our clinical psychology doctoral program was designed with APA accreditation status in mind and fulfills requirements for accreditation set by APA. However, a newly established clinical psychology doctoral program must be in operation for several years before it can be accredited. SMU admitted its first class of students into the clinical psychology doctoral program in the fall semester of 2004. Thus, our program is not yet accredited, but it will be ready for an accreditation review by APA after the spring semester of 2007. Students graduating from our program after APA accreditation is obtained can indicate that they have graduated from an APA accredited doctoral program in clinical psychology.
    End quote:

    Obviously this is not a sub standard program, the RA university in this example is following the APA standard - they know their students deserve the best.

    Learner
     
  8. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: RA Degrees that are not PA are of sub standard professional quality.

    That's ridiculous... on multiple counts.

    That's ridiculous... on multiple counts.

    Specialty/professional accreditors would just love to become more important in the eyes of the world than regional accreditors. If I were a specialty/professional accreditor, I'd make the same kinds of claims. But wishing won't make it so.

    You're reporting this information with the same kind of tone as one might report a diploma mill. Regional accreditation -- whether or not accompanied, or "topped-of" by specialty/professional accreditation -- could never in a million years be thought of, by anyone, as tantamount to being "unaccredited" or a diploma mill.

    Oh, to know what in the heck you just said.

    No argument there... at least I think.

    They mean that it's not accredited by APA, not that it's not accredited at all. And the lack of APA accreditation doesn't effectively render the regional accreditation tantamount to "unaccredited" or, worse, diploma mill status.

    Oh, good... then you do get it. I feel much better now.
     
  9. aic712

    aic712 Member

    Most of unaccredited universities in US in my opinion are degree mills. (some are also diploma mills)
    Are there exeptions? yes.
    Some are on the way to become accredited and legitimate new universities, others are old unaccredited but earned reputation.

    The same rules apply to my post.
    The only change I will make is not all RA, there are some exeptions.

    This is not onlly my view.

    Well some people still call UoP a mill.

    Their use is more limited outside US specially in professional institutions and registries. My friend felt very disapointed when he learned that his degree was regected overseas becuase it wasnt ABET accredited program. He came short of calling it worthless.

    Learner



    Learner,

    UOP has been called a mill by many people and yet thousands of their graduates have successful careers, have gone to law schools, and RA and PA graduate schools. Just look here: http://www.futuremagonline.com/archive/2005/Fall/5.html
    Check out the "going places" section, also there are several archives of future on the website showing thousands and thousands of testimonials from graduates who found success with their degrees, I am one of them. I had absolutely no issues getting into George Washington University's MBA program (one of the top in the nation, AACSB) with my UOP Bachelor's (just RA) coupled with a decent GMAT score.

    UOP also holds professional accreditation in the areas that matter most: Counseling (CACREP) and Nursing (NLNAC) which would not be granted if they were a mill.

    With that said, yes they are agressive in recruiting, and yes there are alot of management and internal issues, but that does not make them a mill.

    When your friend was pursuing his/her degree, was he aware of ABET accreditation, and did he/she know he was going use his degree in Europe? Just curious
     
  10. laferney

    laferney Member

    Lack of professional accreditation can hurt some career opportunities

    APA acreditation only applies to doctoral programs in Clinical, Counseling and School Psychology and not to the vast number of other areas in Psychology -Social, Educational , Experimental etc.
    Lack of APA accreditation may lessen your opportunities for some internship and employment opportunities. In most health care disciplines accreditation by the professional organization is important and the degree may be less useful. For example if you get a BSN from a RA program not accredited by the professional nursing organizations (NLN, CCNE) you are not eligible to take certification tests offered by the ANCC. So lack of professional accreditation makes some degrees less useful and can impact your degree choices. But to say these regionally accredited or DETC programs are degree mills is not acccurate.
     
  11. laferney

    laferney Member

    In the above post I should have said can impact your career choices. However it can impact your graduate school choices. Most graduate nursing schools have graduation from a NLN or CCNE program as a prerequiste. If not accredited by them you can still apply but may need extra courses or be admitted probationally. In Psychology some states require an APA accredited program and internships for licensing.
    I suppose if you got a RA doctorate in Clinical Psychology and couldn't get licensed in your state of choice you might feel it had the same utility as a degree mill. But you would have earned the degree not bought it.
    Years ago Massachusetts had this requirement for licensure as a Psychologist: "a doctoral degree in psychology or a closely related field" I had a friend who contacted the Board and was told his degree plans would qualify . During his doctoral studies at Boston U. (in Social Education) the requiremets changed to exclude closely related field. He graduated and was not eligible. He did gain licesure as a Mental health Counselor but was disappointed.
    So going to a program professionally accredited and RA is suggested.
     
  12. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Originally posted by Lerner
    Regionally Accredited Universities that are granting degrees in professional and specialty areas such as engineering and technology, psychology and other professional degrees that have no Professional Accreditation from appropriate agency are sub standard and may be viewed as professional degree mills.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's ridiculous... on multiple counts.

    Learner:
    Reagional Accreditors don't follow the guidelines established by professional accreditors for professional programs, Who would like History professor to validate the Medical Programs?


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Lerner
    US RA professional degrees that are not ABET, APA, AMA etc accredited are professional degree mills and often of reduced practical and professional quality out of touch with industry standards and requirements.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's ridiculous... on multiple counts.

    Learner: Taken from RA review guide:
    In the course of any institutional review and visit process, however, equal weight cannot be given to each
    possible area and topic identified within the Accreditation Standards. Yes and professional licensing bodies around the US and the world know that.
    They don't have the time nor the funds nor is the scope of this review to address programs in question.

    Here is quick example - International Registry of Professional Engineers

    Also, it is necessary that the engineer:
    be a graduate of an appropriate engineering program accredited under an accreditation system recognized by ABET;


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Lerner
    There is growing consensus among ABET, AMA, APA and other specialty and professional accreditation specialists - evaluators that view such degrees as substandard and incompatible with industry and professional education standards.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Specialty/professional accreditors would just love to become more important in the eyes of the world than regional accreditors. If I were a specialty/professional accreditor, I'd make the same kinds of claims. But wishing won't make it so.

    Learner:
    Here is quick example - International Registry of Professional Engineers
    quote: http://www.usciep.org/adm_req.shtml
    Also, it is necessary that the engineer:
    be a graduate of an appropriate engineering program accredited under an accreditation system recognized by ABET;
    end quote:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Lerner
    Such degrees are actually holding an unaccredited status for professional recognition and registration in international professional registries and national professional registries in dozens of countries.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You're reporting this information with the same kind of tone as one might report a diploma mill. Regional accreditation -- whether or not accompanied, or "topped-of" by specialty/professional accreditation -- could never in a million years be thought of, by anyone, as tantamount to being "unaccredited" or a diploma mill.

    learner:

    Gregg some RA, NA universities produce sub standard degrees in technology and are "professional degree" mills in this aspect.

    quote from UK IEE
    Academic Accreditation

    Accredited programmes are the preferred and fast track routes for those who aim to be a Chartered Engineer (CEng), Incorporated Engineer (IEng) or an Engineering Technician (EngTech).

    The following documents are available in PDF format:

    The list of currently accredited UK degree programmes MS Word [519KB] PDF [129KB] - (learner: some Royal Chartered programs are unaccredited for this category)
    The list of accredited degrees in other countries MS Word [56.5KB] PDF [157KB] - Some US RA universities are unaacredited
    for this category.

    What the IEE looks for when it accredits a CEng programme
    There are over 50 criteria that a programme has to satisfy, before it can be accredited.

    In case of US degrees than only ABET accredited degrees are in the status of equivalent to UK EC IEE accredited degree.

    others fall in to category of unaccredited, such degree would be for example from California National university, TESC technology degrees, yes, on the application they stamp it as UNACCREDITED.

    Other countries are even more demanding.




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Lerner
    Wile mostly RA accredited universities given the opportunity to upgrade the standard and match it demanding advancement industry and professional practices including leading academic professional institutes such as MIT.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oh, to know what in the heck you just said.

    learner

    In many cases only RA universities can have their programs standardized to a demanding industry standards, even leading institutions such as MIT come under such review and upgrade their programs acordigly.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Lerner
    The academic value of non professional education
    Provided by RA academic institutions is well respected and is the prerequisite for the entry in to Professional Accreditation program.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No argument there... at least I think.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally quoted by Lerner from the SMU web site
    ...its first class of students into the clinical psychology doctoral program in the fall semester of 2004. Thus, our program is not yet accredited...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    They mean that it's not accredited by APA, not that it's not accredited at all. And the lack of APA accreditation doesn't effectively render the regional accreditation tantamount to "unaccredited" or, worse, diploma mill status.

    Learner:

    In most health care disciplines accreditation by the professional organization is important and the degree may be less useful - understatement. For example if you get a BSN from a RA program not accredited by the professional nursing organizations (NLN, CCNE) you are not eligible to take certification tests offered by the ANCC.
     
  13. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Hey Lerner! The improvement in your spelling has been duly noted. Keep it up.
    Jack
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member


    Thanks,

    I still need to use the vb editor more often and construct more understandble replies and posts.

    learner
     
  15. jugador

    jugador New Member

    In some cases, I am forced to agree with Lerner. For example, I was very surprised so see that TESC grants a degree in forestry. Forestry degrees not accredited by the SAF (Society of American Forestry) have VERY LIMITED utility, even if conferred by an RA school. Probably 50% of upper-division forestry course work takes place in the field (i.e., outdoors). As much as I strongly believe in the merits of RA distance education degrees, there are limits. Learning forestry by distance education is beyond those limits, IMO.
     
  16. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    ABET accreditation: not necessarily important

    Sweeping generalizations about the value of "professional accreditation" are inaccurate. The reality is that professional accreditation can be critical (yes, more important than RA), or it may not matter all. It all depends on the field in question, so you have to do your homework.

    For example, ABET accreditation is often cited as an example of the importance of professional accreditation. But is the ABET "seal of approval" really important? Yes and no.

    If you want a BS degree in engineering, then yes, ABET accreditation is very important. Engineering employers and state/foreign licensing boards commonly regard it as a minimum standard. It's not impossible to have an engineering career without an ABET degree, but the lack of one is clearly a significant handicap.

    But note that ABET also accredits computing programs. And you want a BS degree in computer science, then ABET accreditation is arguably not important. Employers don't care, and licensing boards are not a factor.

    According to US News, the four top-ranked schools in Computer Science are Carnegie-Mellon, MIT, Stanford, and Berkeley. Two of these schools -- CMU and Stanford -- are not ABET accredited in computer science. Other top-ranked computer science programs that conspicuously lack ABET accreditation include Caltech, Duke, Rice, Wisconsin, U of Washington, and the entire Ivy League. All of these schools are ABET-accredited in engineering (where it matters), but not in computer science (where it doesn't). I doubt that Stanford, CMU, Caltech, or Ivy League computer science grads suffer because their degrees are not ABET accredited.

    Bottom line: Sometimes professional accreditation matters, and sometimes it doesn't. If you want to study computer science, you should not consider ABET-accredited Cal State Fullerton to be a better school than non-ABET Stanford.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2005
  17. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    With all the respect to computer science I would like to say that there is also computer engineering and computer technology.

    Each of this disciplines require specialized training, education and approach. ABET serves well the Engineering and Technology community. Employers, universities and institutes are taking interactive involvement in accrediting, formulating the curriculum andpassing to the universities, technical colleges and institutes the demands, needs and recomendations of the industry, as well as needs and recomendations of leading scientific, research and education providers.

    In some states of US its illegal to call one selve Computer Engineer unless the person is licensed PE, TX in 2004 had trial and as a PE I follow this developments, the practice now is to call one self computer consultant or specialist but not an engineer.

    Is it posible that persons educated in these disciplines are crossing to each others field, yes they have a lot in common yet they are separate.

    ABET is yet to be convinced that DL Engineering labs and simulations can deliver the same quality as labs in B&M institutions. I just visited such a lab in electro optics and electro mechanics, the students that practice in the labs I have seen are lucky and will know what they do after their graduation.

    Thanks for posting the Forestry examples as well.
    I wonder how in Nursing DL program they practice injections?
    there must be a practicum or somthing?

    Learner:confused: :confused: :confused:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2005
  18. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think once some one is a nurse than they can learn by DL the theoretic and continues education.
    The same is in engineering there are many ABET accredited Masters / Graduate level DL Engineering programs, one can learn teory by DL and some labs and simulations are available as well.


    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2005
  19. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Got that cleared up.
     
  20. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Attempts at clarification

    My point was that an ABET-accredited computer science degree (ABET/CAC) has no apparent value over a comparable non-ABET/CAC degree. This is even true in Texas, which is currently the only state that licenses Software Engineers.

    The Texas Board recognizes ABET-accredited engineering degrees (ABET/EAC) for purposes of engineering licensure, including the discipline of Software Engineering. But if you have a computer science degree, then ABET accreditation doesn't matter: the Texas Board makes no distinction between ABET/CAC and non-ABET/CAC compsci degrees. As far as I can tell, nobody else -- in the private sector, or government, or academia -- cares about ABET/CAC accreditation either. That's my point.

    It is possible that someday computer science will become a more tightly regulated field, and that ABET/CAC accreditation will actually matter. But right now it doesn't. That's why top schools like Stanford, CMU, Harvard, Princeton, Caltech, etc. don't bother with it.
    No, there are very few ABET-accredited graduate programs, either DL or B&M. ABET almost always accredits bachelor's programs. ABET does accredit a few master's programs, but typically only in cases where the undergraduate degree is not offered (e.g. Air Force Institute of Technology). There are many reputable DL graduate programs in engineering, but they are RA, not ABET.
     
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