Question for Kirkland Regarding California Coast University

In general I agree Dennis that DETC has done a good job. They have, however, admitted several schools that violate their own policies. ACCIS and Andrew Jackson are perfect examples.

CCU seems a real good fit for both parties. I am just concerned with schools like Century applying that DETC could choose quantity over quality.

Also they are limited in the number of higher end schools they can grab because of the desirability of RA. If we see more schools moving from DETC to RA it would be bad sign for DETC.

 

I think that Dave's post is right on. There is very little difference between a Wyoming academic license and a so called self validating degree mill like James (kf5k) describes. I consider it dishonest to claim that K-W is state approved. The detail of the Wyoming law clearly indicates that it is not state approved. There's just no teeth in the law to go after institutions that make this misleading claim.

James post says to me that he thinks that it is easy to trick people into accepting a K-W degree as valid and equavalent to a standard degree.

 

We are not discussing what would happen if someone went around and told each and every person in the country exactly the RA or no way religion. We are discussing what the people in this country perceive when they are told that a school is licensed/approved by the state. They rightly view this legal statement as having value, and it does. State recognized degrees have the legal perception of legality, and offer the person holding such a degree rights & protections under state statutes and regulations. If the rights of a person holding such a degree are unfairly denied or restricted, they have the right to recourse in the courts & failing that, might ask for recourse in the legislature. People don't confuse accredited with approved. They either don't know or care. They simply react to the words within the statement, and the words state licensed/approved, by themselves, carry positive weight.

 

Bill:

I would like to know what has ignited your hatred of KW. You mention KW every chance you get, but take up for CCU. I know your stand on KW, so you do not have to repeat it again for the gazillionth time. I would like to know what has brought about such hatred? I would also like to know what your educational background is?

Dave posted the above. I agree with it, and as he put it that doesn't mean it does not have any value.

 

James,

You are being intellectually dishonest. The standard in the US is RA. Name the top 100 universities in the country. They are ALL RA. Note: I did not say top 10, 20, nor 50, but top 100. It is clear that in the US accredited means RA.

What is clearly happening is people are thinking if it if state approved it has gone through the same approval that regular universities go through. We both know that is false and that state approved means unaccredited.

You are suggesting that's ok. What they don't know won't hurt them. While that may be the route that graduates of state approved schools have to take it is at its heart dishonest. Given even the most basic and honest description people would consider state approved to be unaccredited and might even consider it be degree mill like.

I believe there are legitimate state approved and unaccredited schools. To anyone who wishes to use such programs, it is certainly possible. Let's, however be 100% honest in describing their utility and problems so that others are not mislead when making this important decision.

 

I'm not sure what "the legal perception of legality" means. I'm also not sure what rights and protections are afforded to any degree holder - accredited, approved, or other. Priveleges, yes. But rights?

If two people apply for a job and have the exact same credentials except that one has a degree from an RA school and one has a state approved degree, it is certainly a legitimate choice for the employer to go with the RA degree, just as it would be an appropriate choice for them to choose someone with a Harvard degree over someone with a degree from a low-prestige RA school.

Obviously, employers have the right to set their own standards. Even governmental employers. If they want an RA degree, or even an Ivy League degree, I don't see how this violates potential employees rights.

On the academic side, the same goes for transfer of credit or acceptance for further study. Students from RA community colleges often have trouble with transfer credit. Unless they have a prior agreement, no school is required to accept credits or degrees from any other school.

I would be interested to see an example where someone's rights have allegedly been violated due to a lack of acceptance of a state approved degree.

 

These points seem to be arguing both sides of the same coin: one side is the public's perception (if we may be so bold as to characterize) and the student's perception (who holds an unaccredited degree with some work behind it).

I think the media is a gauge reflecting what the public thinks and based on the way articles are written the public wants it simple. I think it is very possible that most of the public equates accredited schools with good, legal, and ok. State Approved is also equated with good, legal, and ok with few realizing the nuances in the education industry and licensing professions. (trouble is the media doesn't write about state approved often). I also think Unaccredited is equated with bad, substandard, even illegal. However, it is a broad spectrum and there is a lot of room to introduce new material.

On the student side, we have students who have graduated from unaccredited schools, who have followed a regime of study, have produced scholarly output, done their reading, taken the tests, passed their exams, paid their dues, and graduated. They understand the difference between a degree mill (paper for $ and little or no work) and a learning experience. These folks are more apt to defend their experience and will offer positive information related to their education to gatekeepers in industry that will in many cases be sufficient for them to pass.

 

plcscott, I don't hate K-W anymore than I hate any fraudulent operation. I don't believe that I brought up K-W in this thread first. The only reason that I repeat that K-W is a degree mill for the gazillonth time is that someone has tried to perpetuate K-W's fraud for the gazillonth time on degreeInfo.

Listen plcscott, you got fooled by K-W. You were so sucked into their sham that you apparently actually still believe that a Bachelor's degree can be earned by taking 5 classes and doing a term paper. I just think that others need to be warned. As I type this, I have a really hard time believing that it's true. Everything seems to indicate that you actually do believe it to be true though? How can it possibly be rationalized in your mind that taking 5 classes and doing a term paper can be equal to a Bachelor's degree??? How, I really don't understand this???

In some ways K-W is a more insidious degree mill than the type that has you write a report and then you get your degree. K-W seems to convince an even larger percentage victims that they have actually earned something. The problem is that what has been earned is not a real degree. K-W programs are shams and are woefully substandard programs. For example, a real Bachelor's degree is at least 120 credits. Why does the Council on Higher Education call K-W a degree mill? The answer seems obvious me. Why do you think, plcscott?

Contrary to your assumptions, I don't hate K-W. I don't even hate you for trying to convince others to fall for the same sham degree program that you fell for. I do admit that I'm amazed and amused at times that the victims will try so hard to convince others that they were not in fact a victim.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science from University of California Berkeley. It took a lot more than 5 classes and a term paper.

 

Here is my problem with you Bill. You repeat untruths often over and over in order to further your arguments. You repeat 5 courses and a term paper as if that is all the requirements for a KW degree. THAT IS A LIE! Most people have an associate’s degree, and according to KW's pub forum some have taken at least 9 courses. Have you contacted KW to get some data on the number of courses taken by the students, or are you repeating something that you know nothing about. I suspect the latter. Either the people on KW's pub are liars, or you are repeating lies. I'm sorry to tell you after watching your post I tend to believe them.

I did not know much about accreditation, and did not know about some of the negative attributes of KW. However, when I first started reading and posting here I really got pissed at KW, but over time you and some others have changed my mind. It is your treatment of others, and willingness to do almost anything to win a debate that has made me think that KW is really not as bad as you make it out to be. KW is not what it ought to be, but the way you make it sound it is worse than a place selling a degree for nothing, which is intellectually dishonest.

You will not at all find where I have at all tried to steer anyone to KW. THIS IS ANOTHER LIE! I have said on another thread, and I will repeat it again that I do not see any reason for anyone going after a business, or other readily available degree to attend KW. At the time that I started with KW no schools offered an electrical engineering degree program online that I could find except for KW, and Century. Century sent me a package that looked like it had been prepared on a bubble jet printer. KW sent a professional looking package with a list of companies that had paid for student’s tuition. Many of those companies were companies that I did business with.

KW has obviously found a good niche in a market for higher education for busy mature adults. Thousands have attended KW, and I guess each one is a fraud, con artist, and generally bad person in your eyes

 

Plc

Two quick points:

1. I have talked to people who were offered the five courses with no prior college work and no verified career credit.

2. If Bill revised the "5 courses" to "5-9 courses with a paper" would that really change anything?

Calling K-W a degree mill is a pretty solid judgement call. CCU may be substandard but definately belongs in a different category than K-W.

 

plcscott, I'm very amused. Thank you so much for the great belly laugh! You're apparently just being totally emotional rather than logical. You are being very gullible here to actually believe the KW marketing nonsense!

Let's say there's a degree mill and they say that you can earn a degree by taking 1 to 500,000 classes, you would be arguing here that this degree mill is the toughest school in the world because people have to take between 1 and half of a million classes. What defines the requirements for graduation from a school is the MINIMUM requirements. Please read your paragraph again objectively and tell me that it is not completely illogical.

If one person is allowed to graduate from KW after only 5 "college" classes then that is the minimum required at KW. If you did more than the minimum requirement, it is irrelevant. I did extra units at Berkeley when I got my Bachelor's. It would be asinine for me to argue that Berkeley is a harder school than it is just because I did extra credits. Now of course since the degree mills don't typically publish their graduation requirements, I admit that we're doing some speculating here, maybe it's 3,4, or 5 classes.

Haven't we been over this before? Perhaps I'm just confusing you with one of the other KW victims?

HAHAHAHAHA So now your fraud is my fault!!!! I'm most pleased that I was able to assist you!

I never said that selling a degree for nothing is worse. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of word insidious? It means seductive and subtle. Perhaps I'm mistaken here though about KW being more insidious than a more flagrant degree mill because it appears that you now believe that I'm the one that has convinced you that KW is a real school. Thanks for another belly laugh!

Saying positive things about a degree mill on a public forum is potentially steering others to the degree mill. Especially if they are not addressed.

KW is a degree mill that caters to busy adults. Adults that are too busy to earn a real degree. I didn't say that each one is a bad person. This is one of the reasons that KW is such an insidious degree mill. If you use your KW degree then I believe that you have enough information to know better and you would be deceitful in using it. Is that legal fraud? I dont' know. It is pretending that you're something that you're not so it is fraud. If you do that then let me know and I'll even call you a fraud if you really want me too. However, it wouldn't be enough to convince me that you're a generally bad person.

 

Excellent post James, you are right on the money!

The general perception of DL is going to be the legality of the degree. While I have read here the lack of recognition of the DETC accreditation, it is legal. It is confirmed ny the U.S. Dept of Education and CHEA. At times I feel DETC doesn't get the respect it deserves here.

State approved degrees have legality or they wouldn't be State Approved. If that is wrong, then the States have the responsibility to stop approving the institutions. The degrees are legal to use in certain states.

Most people do not know the difference between DETC and RA.
Accredited and State approved.

 

Dave:

With all due respect,

1. I tend not to believe second hand information especially here. I can only give you my experience as I have in the past.

2. What would change is the repeated lie of 5 courses for everyone. Once Bill heard, or stated this he continues to repeat it even though he does not know jack about what he is talking about.

Here is the deal. Bill can insult, and call me a fraud. I do not really care. I still do not understand how a degree by testing at one of the big 3 is so great (just because it is RA) compared to a degree in which a liberal amount of credit is given for work experience. If a kid in high school who does not have his HS diploma can get a degree by memorizing something and passing a test is that so much better than a person getting experience credit.

If a person can show, or demonstrate knowledge in an area should that person not receive credit?

If someone can show that he has designed a hydraulic press. He can demonstrate that in designing a press that he can calculate the psi needed to press the part, calculate the bore, and stroke of a hydraulic cylinder, the pressures, gpm, pump hp, valves and solenoids to control the press is that person not deserving of some kind of credit.

If the high school kid is more deserving than someone who can actually demonstrate that they actually have learned something then the educational system is just not right.

 

For the record...

While plcscott has taken a tremendous pounding for going to KW.

He has never stated he would recommend it to others. In fact, he stated he learned some disturbing things here about them.

He is a professional who has his own business.

He had an Associates degree from an RA college, so may not have given KW's program a second thought. Hence an easy target for KW recruiting.

He advised us he took part in a learning experience, which is his choice.

He has been extremely honest and been pounded for it.

He deserves respect for being so candid with this forum.

 

Associate's Degree=== 60 units
9 courses========= 27 units

Total============= 87 units




RA BA/BS========== 120 units





Tom Nixon

 

Agreed, this is going too far. Scott should not be shown this much anger and disrespect. No one has to like K-W or ever use or recommend it to another. Scot has the right to his opinion, whatever that is. Disagree with him all you wish, but this attack on his character and name calling doesn't show to good effect on anyone or on any position. Is RA, Approved, DETC or anything worth this anger and attack. We are supposed to be adults with college degrees, but we appear to be children playing king of the hill. No one pays any attention to our wars but us. We are a very small group discussing a subject that 98% of the country could care less about. Let's keep this thing in perspective. In a hundred years all of us will be planted in the marble orchard and who will give a damn about our posturing and loud talk. Lets try to act like our parents taught us to, and show each other just a little bit of respect. Nothing we do here will change anything anywhere. It's not worth getting ulcers, stroke, high blood pressure, over something so tiny. Believe what you will and allow others to have their beliefs. They don't have to be liars or fools, idiots, crooks to believe different than you. I'm sick and tired of K-W wars all the time. Can't you folks on both sides of this issue get together and negotiate some common description that says K-W is less than a good school and a bit better than a mill. Talk to each other and try to work out something and let this subject rest.

 

Oh hell, just when I putting on my best clothes for the public disembowelment... I was getting good at my best chants too ...heresy!!...heresy!!

 

Scott, it is not a lie to say that the graduation requirement from KW is 5 courses. I never said it was that way for everyone. Some people were apparently extra silly and did more work than was required even from KW. What difference does it make that some people did extra work. Perhaps the concept of graduation requirement hasn't sunk in yet?

What defines the graduation requirement at a school is the MINIMUM. Why do you keep insisting on focusing on the irrelevant maximum?

Also, just because KW has sold substandard bogus degrees to others, it doesn't magically make the degrees valid.

Regarding the rest of your post about work experience, you have personally experienced first hand the unique way that degree mills grant work experience credit. It is a way for degree mills to deceive their victims into believing that they have earned something that they really haven't. Only degree mills do this. As a matter of fact, this practice by KW is what convinced me that KW was in fact a degree mill. Here's some articles that describes how it works at real schools. Basically there's two ways to get credit for already obtained knowledge by either portfolio or by examination.

Examination:
http://www.degreeinfo.com/article18_1.html

Portfolio:
http://www.degreeinfo.com/article17_1.html

If after reading these articles, then think about the magic and mysterious way that KW "bestows" work experience. You must see a difference even if the concept of minimum is a bit elusive for you. (Okay I admit it was a cheap shot but the silly guy called me a liar twice because he couldn't understand this seemingly simple concept. )

 

Hi Michael

Two points:

1. DETC does not get the same respect as RA because it is not the US standard. While DETC has been around for half a century or longer it accredited its first college in the 70's.

2. Yes, both state approved and unaccredited degrees are legal. That does not mean that majority of such degrees are legitimate. If the majority of such degrees are not legitimate, it is to be expected that most people will think of such degrees as fraud until they know otherwise.

P.S. None of the above is meant as an insult to anyone posting on this forum.

 

Hi Plc

1. It seems you may be following your emotion here. K-W has repeatedly shown they will award credit w/o proof of having earned it.

2. We have heard from enough K-W students to know that in general the requirement is 5 courses. If you are saying that in some rare cases a couple of more courses have been required I believe you. I don't see where that makes K-W anymore legitimate.

3. If someone can show and prove knowledge by a legitimate means they SHOULD get credit for it! That is exactly what Excelsior, TESC, and COSC do. It is NOT what K-W does. Sending in a resume is not proving you have knowledge and could be faked by anyone.

4. The big three are legitimate because they do not GIVE credit, they award it when a student PROVES they have EARNED it.

5. Proctored testing is a legitimate form of proving knowledge. The big three are accepted while K-W is not because they have repeatedly gone before accreditation committees and proven they have a legitimate program. K-W has never come close to doing so.

Plc I definately respect the legitimate work you have done and the tenacity you have shown on this forum. I think in some ways your judgement has been clouded by the lies K-W tells. If you expect the majority of posters on this forum to consider K-W legitimate I don't think that will happen.

If the K-W degree serves the purpose you have for it, fine. The reason many take the time here to post is that when people defend places such as K-W as legitimate it lends undeserving creditability to a business that is out to defraud people.