PhD Business Administration, Paris College of International Education

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by TeacherBelgium, Jul 10, 2021.

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  1. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    The system is different in Europe, but also there are lists of recognized schools in France that PCIE doesn't appear on. As Vonnegut mentioned, there are some red flags. Thailand giving teaching licenses to TESOL teachers with PCIE degrees is only proof that Thailand may not do a lot of vetting. The minimum requirement for a Non-Immigrant "B" (Teaching) Visa in Thailand is a Bachelor's degree, so they may be accepted in spite of the PCIE degree and not because of it.

    I really hope PCIE turns out to be a quality education but I can see why people on the thread and the board are concerned.
     
  2. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Thank you for your concern.
    I'm going to write a bit for my doctoral thesis.
    See you.
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I didn't offer one.
    Hey! No sassing people in French!

    It's not a matter of taste. When you present credentials, it's a matter of validity. Again, I didn't express an opinion; I asked a question.
    I don't know what all of that means. Is the degree recognized as equal to a comparable degree in the US?
    Okay. NOW I have an opinion. That is irresponsible nonsense. Maybe that works for YOU and maybe it works for NOW, but that is about it. As John Bear has cautioned his readers for decades, be sure the degree you seek will meet your present and your future needs. Failure to do so can result in a time bomb in your resume/CV.
    Is it? Is that how universities are recognized in France? If the embassy says it's okay? Seriously? Again, does that grant the school recognition as comparable to an accredited university in the US? Because here, "state-authorized," with very few exceptions, is absolutely meaningless.
    No, they don't. And I'm sure almost all posters here really don't care what you do. But when you start posting things like this, expect someone else to respond.

    You said: Like SteveFoerster often mentions : "accreditation doesn't confer legitimacy. It's a mere independent demonstration of it."

    Okay. So, is this thing recognized in a comparable way accredited schools in the US are? If not, in what other way is "legitimacy" confirmed?

    When consumers pursue an education at a tertiary institution, they trade their intellectual efforts and money. In return, they get an education and a degree. My original question was, what was the difference in a degree awarded by this thing and one you printed up yourself. You never answered that despite responding to it. Feel free to take another shot at it.
    What is with you making things personal? No one--not me, not anyone--is criticizing you. What's with the ageist attack? Nonetheless, I'll respond.

    Yes, things are different than they were 30 years ago. I know. I was there just as I am here. And I've been here that entire time. I was with this board when it was founded, as well as being an active contributor to its predecessor.

    Yes, 30 years ago I was younger, thinner, had more hair, and was still serving as a military officer. (I was also a full-time assistant professor at a large state university at that time.) So?

    During these ensuing years, I earned a PhD from an accredited university (Union, 2003), specializing in this exact field. (My dissertation was on the accreditation and its impact on the acceptance of degrees by employers.) How about you? (Not that any of that gives me one iota of standing in this or any other discussion thread. But you brought it up.)

    You know what has NOT changed in the past 30 years? The existence of shills for substandard schools offering questionable (or worse) degrees to people who don't know any better. Thank goodness there aren't any of those people around!

    So, my question still stands. What is the difference--in terms of the value and recognition of the degree--from just printing one up? Or, better yet, from purchasing one from a business pretending to be a university and will back up the lie with a diploma, transcript, and a "verification service." Again, not the value of the education. The value of the degree issued. It would be great to hear that instead of a personal attack that implies I've missed some key development along the way. Cheers! :)
     
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  4. Mac Juli

    Mac Juli Well-Known Member

  5. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    If this school would have French state recognition I´d be fully convinced that it would have rigorous standards of assessment that would very much differ from a diploma mill. So I don´t really see Rich´s point.

    However I don´t believe that this school has state-recognition until I see a confirmation from some French authority.
    As far as I read it they also don´t claim to have state-recognition on their website so they are not misleading people.


    By the way since we are talking about institutions that claim to be/ are in France: I just visited Horizons University´s website, they claim ACBSP accreditation, that´s already something I guess.
     
  6. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    On this board, I have defended the decision to attend non-accredited institutions that have verifiable government licenses. However, I would not give unconditional support to such decisions. It would entirely depend on the specific context. For example, I believe that no one should get their highest degree qualification from a non-accredited institution. This is just asking for trouble, particularly with a PhD. I could see a case for non-accredited degrees as a supplementary form of education.
     
    Johann likes this.
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The point is that if the school isn't properly recognized, the degree itself is almost moot. There are exceptions, of course. But generally, there really isn't any difference between a degree from such a source and one you purchase.
    So, you DO see my point?
    This assumes a balance of information that doesn't exist. Students don't always know what they're looking at, what the issues around institutional recognition are, etc. Diploma mills and less-than-wonderful schools often exploit that information imbalance. I would prefer to see an explicit explanation of a school's legal and/or academic status, rather than relying on a lack of information.
    Given other choices by ACBSP, that might be a reflection on them, not Horizon. But I do not know this.
     
    Rachel83az likes this.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    On what basis, I'm wondering? There was a time when taking a degree from an unaccredited (or equivalent) school might be a defendable action, but not anymore (except in very rare cases). So, I would be very interested in hearing a workable justification for it as a better alternative.

    There was a time when accredited (or equivalent) options were few and far between for working people. That is not the case now. For every one of these thingies that gets discussed, there are typically dozens of options that raise no such questions.
    Again, what context would support such a decision? The example you give, which I'll address below, indicates when you would NOT recommend such action. But when WOULD you recommend it? And why?
    This is kind of upside-down. If you chose to take a degree at a level lower than a PhD from an unaccredited school, you likely won't be able to pursue an accredited PhD on the basis of it. (You could probably do it in spite of it, if you didn't disclose it.)

    The vast majority of cases we see is when a person's highest degree is from the questionable source. Not too many PhDs from recognized universities who hold bogus (or less-than-wonderful) master's and/or bachelor's. (None that I can recall, but I want to leave room.)
     
  9. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    Rich,

    You may be correct that the case for earning such a degree has been seriously undermined as a result of the access to affordable and accredited alternatives and the sheer number of options. But I am focusing on something different, mainly reputation. I am saying that earning a highest qualification non-accredited degree potentially undermines your reputation. Realistically, the action cannot truly be compared to earning a second non-accredited degree in addition to an accredited one (or a degree that’s at a lower level than your already bestowed accredited degree). In the cases of mere supplementation with a second degree from a non-accredited institution, the personal reputation isn’t truly on the line (especially with degrees in non-regulated fields from quality and licensed institutions). You have already proven that you’re at a certain academic level with your first accredited degree. That’s what I meant by supplementary education. When we read the stories of ruined reputations with a non-accredited degrees, it is almost always the case of someone who portrayed himself as being at a higher academic level than in reality, someone who coveted a higher title and took a shortcut.
     
  10. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member


    It wasn't a personal attack. I apologize if it came over as one, Dr. Douglas / Rich.

    Let me get back to you once I have an answer from the French ministry of youth, sports and education please.
    Is that okay for you?

    Thank you.

    Best regards,
    TB.
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Accepted and already forgotten. And "Rich" is preferred.
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I understood what you meant by "supplementary education." I didn't address that, but I can see why someone might do that at one of a very few number of unaccredited schools.

    But you talked about the most damage occurring with an unaccredited degree at the highest (doctoral) level. With this, I disagree. I think it does the least damage there. First, the doctorate is normally not a requirement for employment--people don't look, don't know, and don't care. Second, if one earns a degree from an unaccredited school at the bachelor's or master's level, that's it. It's pretty hard--but not impossible--to get admitted to a higher degree from an accredited school on the basis of a degree from an unaccredited school. And that's where the damage is--it poisons the whole chain.

    But my main point is that all of this should be moot. There are no longer--with a few niche exceptions--the need to turn to an unaccredited school. When I started my doctorate, there were five--FIVE!--accredited short-residency options to earn a doctorate. Union, International Graduate School, Nova Southeastern, Fielding, and...the fifth one escapes me. Perhaps Sarasota? Anyway, no Walden, no Capella, no UoP, no...anything. Those few schools were the list. (I almost chose Fielding and ultimately decided on Union.) Now you can't miss them; they're everywhere. Not to mention international options that also did not exist back then.

    Times change. And one of those changes is that there is an accredited alternative for every legitimate, unaccredited school one might consider.
     
  13. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    I am primarily focusing on damage to reputation. However, the damage to one’s future educational options is possibly as devastating with initial Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees from licensed-only institutions. We're in agreement here. That’s why my proposal for degree complementarity was altogether different. Here’s an illustration:

    First scenario: I am already in possession of a first degree (Bachelor’s) from an accredited institution. I am now earning a second degree (second Bachelor’s) in a non-regulated field from a serious non-accredited institution. This degree merely compliments my initial degree and remains at the SAME level. I don’t go above that level. This avoid the damage to future educational options, as I may still get admitted to schools based on the first accredited degree. It also avoid any damage to reputation, as I am not claiming a Master’s degree. As for the second Bachelor’s degree, I knew from the start that it could be used in a non-regulated field and I may not be able to access higher degrees at accredited institutions. However, it could still open some doors.

    Second scenario: I’ve already earned a Master’s degree from an accredited institution. I am signing up for a second Master’s degree in a non-regulated field from a licensed-only institution. Once again, I don’t go above the level of my previously earned and accredited degree. I remain at the Master’s level instead of seeking out non-accredited doctorates.

    As for the non-accredited doctorate, it inflicts the most damage to reputation. Surely, it is correct. You just need to read the stories of people who are being exposed all over the internet. You will almost never hear stories of people being exposed for earning a non-accredited second Bachelor’s degree, or second Master’s after earning their first Master’s at an accredited institution. That’s almost unbelievable. That’s my whole point.
     
  14. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member


    Hi, so I received answer from the French embassy in Brussels.

    The school is authorized to confer degrees but they don't have programmatic accreditation.
    Their degrees can be used for non-regulated professions and the value is left up to the employer.
    However, the degree is a private degree and not a public degree.
    That is what I got from the French embassy.

    I guess this is the US equivalent of state-authorized but not regionally or nationally accredited.

    Kind regards,
    TB.
     
  15. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    Basically, it has similar status to Domuni Universitas https://www.domuni.eu/
    Domuni is a private university, but they held high status by some other institutions. I think people should not use US education standards to evaluate European degrees.
     
  16. Boya

    Boya New Member

    Well, France is even for Europe a special case in terms of accreditation.

    As far as I know, state accreditations in France means that the the state is controlling the quality of a programme. Non state controlled diplomas can have a high quality but also not. The state has no influence about the programme and the quality of it. Some universities have additional accreditations such as AACSB and should thus have high quality standards and be rigorous.

    Even the PhD Porgramme at Emylon has no state accreditation:

    https://em-lyon.com/en/faculty-research/recherche/phd-program/frequently-asked-questions

    No, emlyon is a Grande Ecole not a public university and therefore unlike a doctorate done at a French public university, a PhD is not automatically accredited by the French Ministry of Education. Our outlook is global, we train students to work both within France and beyond and our PhD alumni work at institutions across the globe.

    The same should also apply to the PhD of INSEAD.
     
  17. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    Spain, Swiss, and Italy also have several accreditations too.
     
  18. Acolyte

    Acolyte Active Member

    For someone with the kinds of concerns you expressed not long ago about getting a degree that might somehow be seen as less than legitimate, or "Mickey Mouse" - I would think that this would send up some red flags for you. They always use vague language, like "the value is left up to the employer" - which reminds me of religious institutions claiming that the value of their teachings is evaluated by God, not the state. Simply being "authorized" to grant a diploma or a degree is a very low threshold of accountability. Just about all "diploma mills" were authorized to grant degrees, but as many here have pointed out, accreditation is supposed to be some kind of indication of quality and accountability - and even that gets short circuited by institutions being "accredited" by bodies or associations that have little or no standing in the broader field of academia. I'm not saying this school or program is a "scam" but if you are at all concerned with the utility of your degree, you might want to consider a program that doesn't require additional explanation. A couple of things to keep in mind: 1. It probably won't be "cheap" 2. It probably will take longer to complete than you are hoping, and require more effort than you are hoping. The HAU MBA program discussed in another thread was an amazing opportunity for a once in a lifetime cost - but if it didn't fit your needs, then you were right to skip it. It sounds to me like you should stop worrying about cost and find a program you like, then find a way to pay for it - spend some time looking for scholarships, grants, and other programs to help pay for it. Coming at it the other way around (cost first) is going to have you continue to run in circles. .02
     
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  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I do say that, but it shouldn't be misconstrued into suggesting that the accreditation process has no value or that, generally speaking, independent validation of academic legitimacy isn't an important signal for prospective students.
     
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  20. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    Sounds like it's not that dissimilar from a Coursera certificate. If that works for you, that's great. But it definitely doesn't sound like a program with much utility.
     

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