Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Right, but the point in bringing up WES is that--for whatever reason--they have become the go-to for many schools and many don't give you the option to move on to another evaluator. I've inquired at a number of schools and had registrars tell me they only accept WES and nothing else. This is obviously not the case for every school as I've had some tell me they will accept an evaluation from any NACES evaluator, but there are plenty out there who aren't as flexible. So a foreign student may need to move on to another school that doesn't mandate a WES evaluation.
    innen_oda likes this.
  2. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    WES is more conservative in their evaluations. Normally they will accept as equivalent any Western European, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand government approved University but they will start being more picky when it comes to the rest of the world.
    If you are interested in Spanish qualifications, the best bet is an official degree from a Government approved school, WES would normally recognize it. It is possible to transfer ECTS credits to some official programs so you might start with ENEB and transfer to Miguel Cervantes official degrees and end with something that WES can recognize. I would avoid any non Western European operation as this is risky, WES would be reluctant to accept a degree from a school operating in Europe but accredited in Dominica, Africa or a tiny island. If you are able to transfer credits from ENEB to Miguel Cervantes, you might be able to cut cost by half. Miguel Cervantes is flexible for credit transfer but don't offer English qualifications. Another option would be a top up MBA program from the UK that might cost 5K, you might try to transfer your ECTS credits there and see if you can end with a British official qualification for 5K. I did something similar with an AIA qualification and used it to top up a MSc degree. I think it is worth exploring this option.
  3. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That's solid advice because there are plenty of Spanish options, a student just has to either know Spanish or be comfortable with translating, and those two things tend to be too daunting for most.

    Top-ups are very attractive, too. I think the concept confuses Americans because all of the side schools where it can be done can appear like a scam to most Americans.
  4. manuel

    manuel New Member

    I don't know if this has been mentioned before. But, Jordi Faz Florensa is the founder of ENEB and ISEB. Until no long ago, they used to have almost identical websites. Thus, it might be worth asking ENEB or ISEB if the degree can come from the Instituto Superior Europeo de Barcelona instead of ENEB. This might be a good idea considering the bad press that ENEB has received from some posts. I personally think that it is a great price but people who are used to pay student loans their entire lives will see this as a bad degree. To me, it is just a Master Propio degree. Just that!
    Rachel83az likes this.
  5. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I don't think any changes need to be made based on a few negative internet posts since the majority of postings have been positive especially from people who live in Spain. The ignorance and derision was to be expected from people who live in countries where tuition rates are traditionally ridiculous like in the United States. The reality however, is that the ENEB program is almost 100% identical to some independent study programs that have existed in the U.S. (which usually had low tuition rates by comparison to the average U.S. school with high tuition costs, but still ridiculously high by comparison to ENEB).
    Thorne and Maniac Craniac like this.
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There are always negative press articles about pretty much all the Universities in the world so we cannot judge a school based on one or two bad articles. We tend to overthink in this forum but in reality, nobody cares, you hold a degree from a tiny non ranked accredited school in Spain comparable to Aspen or any other not known online American school. Nobody is going to do the detailed analysis of almost 30 pages done here in this forum. To the average employer, it counts as as an online masters degree from an unknown european school but shows that you have some business knowledge and then the rest is your ability to sell yourself and experience. It is not Harvard nor Stanford, it is what it is. The bottom line is that it is not a scam and you can get something out of it but it is not going to give you a professor job nor it is going to allow you to continue with a PhD at least in Spain. The founder of the school has also an MBA from another tiny non ranked business school but it did something with his MBA and created a company, he used his knowledge to create something and this is what it counts at the end.
    SteveFoerster and LearningAddict like this.
  7. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    WES often frowns on cross border programs as do most evaluators. SMC is partnering with UCN which leads to a regional accredited equivalency in the end by two or three of the more lenient evaluators but they also have another program that has a European accreditation that has not been getting that many good reviews. Since SMC is not on the accredited university checklist by themselves, I agree they will likely get a non accredited yet legit/legal equivalency by WES which is the same result they gave ENEB. In theory, I believe this is based on their validation and certification from an accredited school although not being accredited themselves.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I have seen a number of WES evaluations including my own (with a DEAC degree) and I have not encountered "unaccredited/legit." They don't use the word "unaccredited" at all favoring "recognized." In the case of my DEAC Masters, for Canada they wrote that it was equivalent to an unrecognized degree in Canada. They left blank the space where they could have really shouted it down and instead there is an asterisk which brings you to the bottom of the form whereupon you learn "Accredited by DEAC. Only regionally accredited degrees are recognized as equivalent to Canadian degrees." I don't know how much nuance they would reasonably give some of these other schools with more precarious situations.
  9. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That would have to be in the future though, because as of right now, SMC is blocked by WES.
  10. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    WES returned an evaluation to someone on the other board with this result:

    Country: Spain
    Credential: Titulo de Master
    Awarded by: ENEB
    Status: Non-accredited program
    U.S equivalency: Master’s degree from a non-accredited institution
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Note that WES in Canada and WES in the U.S. sometimes return slightly different results.
    LearningAddict likes this.
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Right, I'm saying that I am not aware of WES issuing a determination of "Non-accredited" but also saying that it is legally awarded (as opposed to, I assume, an illegally operating mill).
  13. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    I added the term legal in that my assumption of WES evaluation is that just because it is recognized as non-accredited doesn't make it a diploma mill. If a degree is a diploma mill, I would think that there would simply be no recognition. Having it recognized as a degree though non-accredited essentially means that the degree can still be used for professional purposes with some limitations.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  14. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    SMC is blocked by WES likely for the same reason as UCN due to the cross border / validation accreditation university structures. Schools that offer propio degrees without an intention of validation equivalency by other universities for official degrees will probably only either be recognized for transfer credit or given a non-accredited equivalency.

    WES just wants to continue their conservative approach and blacklist all of the gray area evaluations of university partnerships.
  15. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree, I know SCM became very popular in Canada as many faculty members were doing this degree. I see a relationship between number of degrees and black list, SMC is a legit foreign education supplier and there should not be reason to be blocked. They can evaluate them as non accredited but black listed is a bit extreme as they are not a scam.
    The DEAC refusal from WES Canada is also surprising, DEAC is a legit accreditation agency recognized by the department of education of the US and there should be no reason to refuse it.
    Again, WES is not the only evaluation service in Canada. IQAS and Quebec are the most lenient so maybe you can try those services.
  16. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Technically they don't "refuse" DEAC, they simply note that only RA degrees are considered equivalent in Canada and thus, anything non-RA is evaluated as unrecognized in Canada but with the asterisk that the degree is accredited just not deemed equivalent to a Canadian degree.

    I agree, though, that this is bogus and I'd be curious as to whether they treat Rockefeller University the same way or if they treat accreditation by the NYS BOR as "regional" as some consider it.

    I would also be curious how WES would treat a school with ATS as its sole institutional accreditor. I suspect WES isn't particularly consistent in its application of these rules.

    That said, the primary use for these evaluations (especially from US to Canada) is for immigration. Once through you're largely entering into a typical job search situation where many employers are not requesting degree evaluations at all and especially in the case of US based schools. I'm less concerned about someone like me being jerked around by Canadian immigration with an NA Masters degree and more concerned with someone who is in a more vulnerable position being victimized by WES's policies. Think about someone from Nicaragua who might have a wholly legitimate education but is unable to secure a visa in Canada under their skilled workers program because WES decided to blacklist their school.

    Bringing things back to ENEB et al, I think there are really two factors at play. There is government recognition. This is another area where people get weird and inconsistent. There are states in the US where recognition of a school absolutely is an indicator of institutional quality. The ones where it is not are typically those who grant exemptions to their own rules. Elsewhere in the world, government recognition is really the only recognition that matters. Then you have institutional reputation. If Harvard granted you a degree but there was some weird rule that this degree was somehow not recognized by the government, it would still likely have value because it's Harvard. Harvard could withdraw from all of its accreditors and it would still probably be a highly sought after school.

    The issue with a lot of these schools, legitimate as they may be, is not that WES won't evaluate them but that their status is confusing and not apparent to the typical employer. I would also just add that appearances do matter. And so ENEB, legitimate as it may be, offering an MBA for cheap on Groupon, is likely to be interpreted by the typical US employer as "This is a place where you pay a few hundred bucks and they mail you a diploma." Even if WES gave you a full and unconditionally positive evaluation this would probably be an issue for the same reason that UPHoenix is called a diploma mill despite being regionally accredited.

    The biggest threat of WES is not that there are no options but no other option seems as universally accepted as WES. Which means you could be rushing out to get multiple evaluations from multiple sources for multiple purposes. Hopefully one day someone will sue the ever living hell out of WES and some of these more repressive policies will change.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  17. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    Woah, that's interesting. I always assumed there was just one WES in the US that received/made all of the evaluations. Do you know how to know which WES might receive them?
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Technically any of the evaluations from The Alliance of Credential Evaluation Services of Canada should be fine but in practice WES do have a lot of power in particular in Ontario when it comes to professional associations, government employment and some regular employers. For regular business jobs, it is really up to the employer to accept the degree but some places require an evaluation.

    In any case, it would be interesting if you send your degree to another member of the The Alliance of Credential Evaluation Services of Canada. I know Quebec just check if the school is accredited by the minister of education of the home country and it is not checking if the school has foreign operations, validation agreements, etc. WES evaluation is also a pain as PhDs require letters from the home University confirming the degree and not just transcripts. Not all the universities provide transcripts in a sealed envelope like WES requires so this can be problematic for people from places where this type of services are not provided. Other services only require notarized copies of your credentials and do not require sealed envelops, letters, etc.
    If titulo propios are issued by accredited universities by their home country and the course load in terms of hours is equivalent to a Canadian degree. It is likely that some services would give them equivalence. WES is also more strict because is used by many provinces while Quebec is mainly regional, Quebec service also does not provide course by course evaluation and their evaluations state that they are not legal and should be used only for reference purposes.
    It would be interesting to see if DEAC and titulo propio degrees have acceptance in the local market in Canada.
  19. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    It's probably hard to say because even with an RA MBA, I'm not really the same sort of candidate in Canada as I am in the U.S. My qualifications are largely transferrable but my experience is in a completely different cultural and legal setting. If I decided to move to Canada my most likely path would be to either do an internal move within my company (which has offices in both countries) or to go to another international companies where my US based HR experience would be helpful and not something I needed to "overcome." From there, as with many other situations, having that first job under my belt it would likely be easier to leverage my network and bounce around as needed. That's basically the same process even if I didn't have an RA MBA or if I had DEAC and a titulo propio or anything in between.

    Outside of Canada, WES definitely has the broadest appeal to the point where I think some people believe that WES has some sort of official status (like how some people think the BBB is a government agency with some sort of enforcement authority) just because of its name recognition. I suspect the reason they haven't been caught in any significant legal hot water is that large companies, rather than litigating, are more likely to just use alternate services if they find it is causing them problems. If I hire a ton of engineers from Nicaragua and WES is giving us a hard time AND we need a clean evaluation because we're also helping with immigration paperwork, we'll just find another evaluator and move on. The downside is that I can only imagine their processes have caused individuals grief for no defensible reason.
  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    There's a thread on this board about how I helped a friend to use a DEAC degree (Ashworth) in a regulated profession in Canada (Early Childhood Education). We succeeded, ultimately, by threatening the regulator with a lawsuit. The regulator replaced their leadership team after that, and shut the door on accepting more DEAC degrees (by making "evaluated by WES as recognized" their official standard). For use in Canada, I would stick with RA degrees. Better yet, get an RA degree and move to US if you have a chance.

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