Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

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  1. Garp

    Garp Active Member

    Johann posted this in the Foreign Grad thread but it deserves to stand out as an explanation of the Masters degree Propio vs Oficial.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/acei-global.blog/2015/05/28/spain-understanding-and-evaluating-the-titulo-propio/amp/

    It is an odd situation for Americans but seems somewhat like a state authorized unaccredited Masters. She notes they are attractive to foreigners but not so much to Spanish students and can set whatever admission standards they like (if I am reading correctly they could decide you do not need a bachelors for admission).

    Still, for $299 for two degrees what do you expect. Plus good continuing education.
     
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  2. Garp

    Garp Active Member

    Her recommendation is:

    "Given that the titulos propios do not have MEC recognition, may have variable admission criteria depending on individual institutional policies, and do not provide access to doctoral degree programs, my advice is to recognize the studies for credit equivalence but not a U.S. Master’s degree."
     
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  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes - you are reading that correctly. 100%. And yes, the propio situation is rather similar - but not, I believe, identical to the degrees of an unaccredited State-authorized school. More like the imaginary situation of an accredited school, additionally State-authorized to award some degrees not covered by its accreditation. Things never got as far as that here - ever - as far as I know.

    And I agree 100% with your other conclusions. Good job of interpretation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
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  4. Garp

    Garp Active Member

    I don't think there is anything wrong with listing it as a Masters in Business Administration since that is what is authorized but I would be cautious to list it as it is written (eg certified by Universidad Isabel rather than awarded by them IF they are not actually issuing it) and as a Propio. In other words, don't try and mislead in any way.

    I don't think it is wrong to list a Masters from Trinity Theological Seminary but don't try and misrepresent it as jointly issued by the University of Liverpool because they "accredited it". Same with Graduate Theological Foundation. Just because you did the Oxford Summer continuing education program and due to an agreement you were allowed to defend your dissertation there, don't state PhD Graduate Theological Foundation/Oxford University, Oxford, England. Those are the types of things that cause the appearance of integrity issues.
     
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is what a NACES evaluation services gave me for my propio degree.

    However, as the lady that completed the ENEB degree stated, not everyone needs an evaluation, as long as the degree is legal and not a mill, it can be shown in a CV without fear of being accused as fraud.

    I have a NACES evaluation report, I have only used it for adjunct teaching, work permit and license requirements in the US. For an American resident working in a regular job, the employer might care less for a NACES report. The employer might look at it as a plus and move on, most employers only look at the experience and unless your degrees are from a top school like Harvard, they are just ice on the cake.
     
  6. Garp

    Garp Active Member

    I agree RFValve. I would accurately list it as issued and authorized.
     
  7. Johann766

    Johann766 Member

    If anyone ist finding a doctoral propio study please post it here too :)
    There is UCN and Azteca that offer doctoral propio and Johann also mentioned San Juan de la Cruz University.
     
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There are few, but they are not so cheap. Azteca is like 8K and UCN like 6K, you also have the Costa Rican schools like San Juan and UNEM but these schools work with private schools so the price varies depending on the program.

    There are also private Spanish schools but they are not recognized by the Spanish Government.
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    These schools you mention - suitable for Johann766 as he says he knows English but not Spanish. The two Costa Rican schools get a pretty bad rap in forums. UNEM is believed controlled by Europeans and/or Americans and has been reported to be remote-operated from locations as far-flung as Arizona and Poland. Depends what the other Johann wants to do with his doctorado. If he wants a wall hanger - any school is fine. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a snowball's chance in downtown Managua or San Jose of ANY Azteca UCN or UNEM or SJDLC degree passing official muster in Germany. Let alone a doctorate! They're very strict in Deutschland about who can call him/herself Herr/Frau Doktor.

    @Mac Juli - what do you think?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    "ANY Azteca, UCN or UNEM or SJDLC degree..." any propio degree that is - and many degrees from these institutions are. Many Azteca degrees have RVOE (reconocido de validez) and many don't. I believe UCN has a mixture, as well. One of the Costa Rican schools had precisely three recognized programs when it started - it has added dozens of propios since, and none of the distance programs are recognized.

    Good luck in Germany with any foreign doctorates - recognized or otherwise. Except Harvard and Oxbridge, - POSSIBLY.
     
  11. Mac Juli

    Mac Juli Active Member


    That I am not an expert for the German accreditation system. I have a solid sciolism based mostly mainly from anabin, the already mentioned site for acceptance of foreign doctorates / titles in Germany. I can confirm that these policies are, well, quite strict.
     
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  12. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The Costa Rican schools might not have great rep but I don't think there is much difference with UCN or Azteca for practical purposes. All these schools are very low ranked, the rankings below:


    UCN ranking 10601 https://www.4icu.org/reviews/14456.htm

    UNEM ranking 11682 https://www.4icu.org/reviews/universities-urls/1083.shtm

    Universidad San Juan ranking 12868 https://www.4icu.org/reviews/14810.htm

    Universidad Azteca ranking 20865 http://www.webometrics.info/en/search/Rankings/universidad%20azteca

    CRA Canada only recognizes UNEM for tax credit purposes:
    https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/topics/about-your-tax-return/tax-return/completing-a-tax-return/deductions-credits-expenses/line-32300-your-tuition-education-textbook-amounts/recognized-educational-institutions-outside-canada/universities-higher-educational-institutions.html

    You cannot expect to spend 5K in your PhD and get a top school doctorate. UCN is a bit better than the other schools but only for a marginal difference. If unaccredited is an option, Bircham in spain has propio PhDs for low cost too:
    https://www.bircham.edu/

    If the OP wants a bullet proof doctorate, you have to be ready to spend the 70 to 100K for a doctorate.
     
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  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    For sure - bullet proofing costs money - and in some countries, it's essential.

    Depending on his situation, maybe Johann - the real German, not the fake one (me) could make use of a degree from Bircham - a school that is perfectly legal and accredited by ASIC International, IIRC. I believe the owner once sued an expert who wrote something that the Professor, Dr. Prince & Knight i.e the owner, construed as negative about his school some years ago, so I'll say nothing against it. Ever. I don't want to be another defendant. I've had my turn a few years ago, when a bunch of us at DI were sued by a different university owner. He was unsuccessful - but once is enough.

    I would have thought that UCN and Azteca would rank much better than the other schools. UCN has a genuine on-ground operation and its degrees including doctorates have had some mileage in the US. I'm not sure how Azteca degrees fare in North America. Many of them have the RVOE so they should fare fine. How the propio ones do, I have no idea. I'm not sure the same can be said of the Costa Rican schools. Other people have said the two Costa Rican schools are mills. I won't. Im a once-sued coward. You can easily use the search gadgets on this and other fora to see the "mill" statements and the reasoning behind them, if you want. So, no doubt, can the proprietors of those Universities. For all I know, they might be enjoying coffee or browsing this forum in Poland or Latvia, rather than San Jose.

    The only thing that makes me nervous about UCN and Azteca is the large number of dual programs - some with schools that I believe are not the calibre of UCN or Azteca themselves. I always get nervous when I see large numbers of cross-validations or dual/triple programs. That's just me. I'm nervous by nature - now.

    I believe there is European influence in this. There is an energetic, enterprising man who I remember is or was headquartered at an Austrian private university - I forget the name -- or maybe he was Austrian and was on staff at a Swiss Cantonal U. I'm getting old, I guess. Memory doesn't always serve. His passion is engineering these dual programs for European Latin American Universities, including those named here. I commend him for being assiduous and prolific. The number of programs he put together is amazing.

    Anyway, I'm surprised to see the relative rankings - but what the hell do I know....
     
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Correction: Bircham International U. is not accredited by ASIC. My mistake. I think it's best you go to the Bircham site if you want to see their accreditation statement. They do state they have no CHEA accreditation.

    Also "European Latin American Universities" in prev. post. I meant European AND Latin American Universities. Sorry. It's 2.25 AM here....
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    These degrees--awarded by recognized schools yet not properly recognized themselves--do a good job of subterfuge. But whether or not they stand on their own and seen as comparable to degrees from accredited schools in the US is in the eye of the beholder. And as we know, there's a lot of beholding being done without the facts. (This is the basis for the diploma mill industry.) But what would a knowing employer say? Or a foreign credential evaluation service? Or an accredited school here in the US? That's what matters, not some hypothetical discussions or strained comparisons.

    Some people do just fine with degrees from diploma mills. Other people see their legitimate, accredited, DL degrees laughed at by ignoramuses who call it a mail-order degree, etc. There's a lot of disinformation out there.
     
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Wow! Congratulations. Your English is better than mine! I had to look that word up! I bet your German is better, too. :) And you said you're half French, so .... I think I should go home about now.... :)
     
  17. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree, we can discuss here all we want but we would need to test these degrees with NACES evaluation services to see how they stand in the US market. This discussion board is a micro system, we can say this school has better rep than the other one but we would need to gather facts to see how they compare in the real world.
     
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    The schools discussed here are well known in our micro system of the DL discussion forums but the reality is that there are many schools out there if the person is willing to do a dissertation in Spanish. University of Baja California is just an example of another low cost Mexican school that is properly accredited:

    https://ubc.edu.mx/oferta-educativa/doctorado-en-educacion-virtual/


    There are few in Brazil as well if you are willing to do a dissertation in Portuguese. I am not sure if there are other Costa Rican non private schools that offer DL doctorates, Costa Rica is well known for education in central American with few ranked schools like INCAE and University of Costa Rica. University of San Juan is a virtual school http://www.sjdlc-university.ac/Courses.html# but it seems to be properly accredited but very low ranked school, I agree that UCN might be a better option just because it has a campus and a medical school that adds to its credibility but Nicaragua is not well known for a strong education system, most ranked universities in Latin America are in Mexico, Costa Rica, Chile, Brazil and Argentina. UNAM that is a top ranked school has 3 online doctorates:
    https://estudiarenlinea.net/doctorados-en-linea-unam/?fbclid=IwAR2l-pGk5hosi2O03ulf8J_G-x2JxBXrqUb5ZhKk-54-71YIkb6zJ34T-cU

    I think here the limitation is that people in this forum are mainly interested in Universities that allow an English dissertation and this is limited to private low ranked schools.
     
  19. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There are few private English non accredited programs in Spain. Spanish law allows private schools to grant degrees as long as they disclose that they are not official. Again, these programs are legal but not accredited in Spain, I guess the equivalent of state approved.
     
  20. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Many private schools in Latin America are low ranked and not exactly top schools. I think they might be good to serve a niche market, If I want to do a PhD in a niche field like Natural Medicine, then some of these programs might be fine because you are getting specialized knowledge and not interested in Academia or a top executive job. UCN seems to be doing this, many their programs are in Natural Medicine or Pastoral Counselling.

    The OP and others interested in these programs should have a particular goal in mind, I think Azteca, UCN or others might be a good option if it is just for personal purposes or to support a specialized career such as a practice in counselling, natural medicine, etc but not a good option for corporate careers or academia.

    Azteca doctoral degree are not accredited in Mexico so they will not pass the test of a NACES evaluation. UCN will score better for this purpose. But again, If I am going to practice as a private counsellor, I just want to put a degree in my web site that people would not perceive as a degree mill and might care less about a NACES evaluation report.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020

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