Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    All of the information in that link has been discussed before. The problem with trying to equate a propio degree to a U.S. unaccredited state authorized degree is that one can come from an accredited school (propio degree) and the other cannot (U.S unaccredited degree). It's also worth mentioning that Spaniards are very much aware of the importance of institutional accreditation, and a propio degree from an unaccredited school will be noticed and scrutinized, and in many cases rejected. All propio degree programs are not created equal nor are they viewed as such by the general public.

    As for the recommendation of the writer, she is free to give it, but it would be wise to only concern oneself with what an official NACES evaluation states (if an evaluation is important to the degree seeker) and what your employer or potential employer may think.
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This is the part I disagree with. We don't know that. I don't believe such a comparison has actually been made by any authority that would matter.

    Also, the term "state approved" is very vague. It used to have meaning in one state, California, but not anymore. Each of the 50 states has a different process and system for licensing schools. Terms like "state approved" or "state authorized" or "state licensed" have no consistent meaning.

    It would appear these degrees are legal, but awarded outside the schools' approved (accredited) scope. WE don't really know how they'll be received and perceived by (a) employers, (b) professional licensing bureaus, (c) accredited universities here in the U.S. and/or (d) foreign credential evaluators. That's what matters.

    You can't control how it will be perceived. As John Bear used to note, putting such a degree in your resume (or these days LinkedIn) is a time bomb. You don't know when it will go off.

    When Union had its struggles with the state of Ohio (but not, interestingly, with its regional accreditor), alumni were seriously concerned with how it might affect their reputations should Union become a big flame-out. It didn't, to everyone's relief. Union largely destroyed the uniqueness that made Union, but the state simply would not stand for it any longer. This meant the school survived (in a more traditional form) and our degrees weren't diminished by it all.

    Lesson: you never know when even a "legal" degree (like one of these "side job" degrees) will blow up in your face.
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    So what is the recommendation here? To get a NACES report and publish it on my web site? Let's say I get a University of San Juan PhD and I manage to get a positive NACES report. Later, an scandal is disclosed where this University is found guilty of granting substandard degrees. Would the NACES report protect me?

    As all these operations are very fragile, University of San Juan or Azteca can disappear any time and before they go, they might just decide to print diplomas to get some cash before they are out. How can someone be protected? Is there any University insurance that can protect me if my University goes out of business or guilty of fraud?
  4. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Apparently we're on track to overthink this as much in this thread as in the other thread.

    "It's a degree from a business school in Barcelona that's validated by a recognized university in Spain. I learned a lot, got an international perspective, and picked up some business Spanish along the way."

    Anything more is overkill.
    Filmmaker2Be and Maniac Craniac like this.
  5. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    The way I look at it, if people can get hired with a degree in Ignorantology from DiPloma Mille University of Neverheardofit Island, people can get hired with a cheap business degree from Spain.

    I think I'd have a harder time explaining it to my friends and family than I would an employer.
  6. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Or, one could look at it like this. Let's say (completely hypothetically) that a UMass MBA opens up 97% of opportunities, a Cumberlands MBA opens up 80% of opportunities, a WGU MBA opens up 60% of opportunities and an ENEB MBA opens up 30% of opportunities.

    There is a proper place in the market for each of these degrees at each of their respective investments and returns.
  7. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    Most of the problem stems from people trying to equate our system to Spain's using concepts that may sound like they fit but actually don't. There is also some automatic dismissal simply because it's a foreign degree and the price is low, neither of which actually means anything when it comes to legitimacy.
    Filmmaker2Be likes this.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    You're on your own. I like the solution with the fewest things that could go wrong.

    When I started my Union program, there were exactly 5 accredited, short-residency schools offering the doctorate. Union, Fielding, International Graduate School, Nova Southeastern, and the University of Sarasota. Walden wasn't accredited yet. Capella, TUI, Northcentral--these didn't even exist. DETC wasn't yet accrediting schools offering the doctorate, either. The choices were slim, and you could see why someone might go to a good, unaccredited school. (The rent-a-school option we seem to be enamored with right now didn't yet exist, either.) But today? Why do it? Why take chances that your degree will prove to be less-than-wonderful...or worse? It doesn't make any sense. And no, it's not about money. The differences--tens of thousands of dollars--are nothing over decades of professional work.

    Let's face it. This is about cutting corners and nothing more. If it works for you, fine. But don't expect it to work. It will...until it doesn't.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Unless, of course, one of them isn't a degree at all--or, at least, not the one it pretends to be. Tick tick tick tick....
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    The difference is something - a considerable something - if you don't have the money (yet) and dread facing years of student debt slavery. It could be a good down payment on a house, plus freedom from car payments for years and hey - even a start on someone's kids' college fund. It's not "nothing"; nowhere near it under most people's circumstances. That's right, it dangety well isn't "nothing.".

    You wrote about the options that were not available back in the day. If they had been, or if you were starting out now, would you do / have done things differently? If so, how?
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  11. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That's why I like the Coursera comparison: unaccredited school handling an accredited school's program. People appear to have no problem with that arrangement as long as part of it is based on U.S. soil. Hmmmm.
    innen_oda likes this.
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    "It could be a good down payment on a house, plus freedom from car payments for years and hey - even a start on someone's kids' college fund..."

    OR it could mean assurance of continued food and rented roof for a struggling family - and more are struggling than ever. Most of us are not higher-income folks. Some are, of course. They can congratulate themselves on their earned privilege - I have no problem with that - but they should realize that the rest of us aren't GS-umpteen or officers in the US forces. At least not yet - and a lot never will be in that economic class. We all have to get by.
  13. Asymptote

    Asymptote Active Member

    So “Propio” is a designation specific only to Spain? Or do other countries also have this exact (or similiar) designation?
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Great question. I wonder how I'll answer it?

    I always regretted not going to Fielding. That was available even back then, and I still think very highly of it. But Union was the most flexible available.

    If I was starting out now? Depends at what point in my career we're talking about. If I was in the early-to-middle stages, I'd get the best degree I could. At this point in my career, and if I didn't already have a doctorate, I would seriously consider a professional doctorate at a DEAC-accredited school.

    If we're actually talking about today, under my current circumstances, I'd do the DA at Harrison Middleton or the DBA at Heriot Watt. The former because I think it's cool and I might be able to shape a program around what I want to research. The latter because it is now thesis-only and I know I could research what I want to know next.

    The cookie-cutter programs--Capella, Northcentral, Walden (less so), TUI, Trident, etc.--are all fine. I'd avoid UoP simply because so many people who don't know what they're talking about have formed poor opinions of it--it's the McDonalds of higher education. McDonalds takes all the flak, but Burger King is just as....

    I think the two biggest keys are, first, try to know what your present and future needs are/will be to the maximum extent possible. It's a big decision, and so many posters on this board simply have not done this kind of homework and reflection. Second, try to do the degree that will define you in ways you want. It doesn't mean you're stuck with that definition, but it can be hard to get away from. I did the Union program because I could create and execute a degree specializing in nontraditional higher education. I mean, I have a freakin' doctorate in this stuff, yet I get all kinds of grief for my opinions. (I wish people would adopt a more 'take it or leave it' approach instead of constantly seeking to argue. Discuss, fine, but there are so many Tellarites.) Anyway, I never stepped into this field. I remained in HRD, which is what eventually drove me to do another doctorate in that field. And I'm very, very glad I did.

    So, it's hard to make a solid one-size-fits-all recommendation. Each person's circumstances are unique. But I would avoid--at all costs--getting a degree from a corner-cutting foreign school that rents out its degree-granting authority (to award degrees unrecognized by its central government). I had some first-hand experience with that and it didn't go well.

    And as for the money, it really is largely immaterial over one's professional life. If the degree is the right thing to do, money certainly must be taken into account. The difference between zero dollars (not doing it) and, say 20,000 dollars is tremendous. But the difference between $20K and $60K isn't material. You're either going to do this or you're not. Once you decide to make the plunge, there are so many other factors very much more important than that. Forty grand spread over 40 years is a drop in the bucket compared to how it can impact both your career and your life (including your earnings). But that's a decision for each person. (My Union degree cost about $60K; my Leicester degree was less than a third of that.)

    Broad, sweeping statements about these things are seldom useful in individual situations, and there are a ton of misperceptions afoot as well. I get a little frustrated with both. They don't help.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Obviously, I am. I started my military career making $397 per month, before taxes. A big step up from the $2.12 an hour I was making (part-time) before that.
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    No. Other Spanish-speaking countries offer this type of degree as well. They're sometimes called "own title" degrees in English - but I know of no English-speaking country that offers them - or anything similar. Plenty of countries will offer "legal degrees of no particular standing"- Swiss schools with Cantonal permission but not Swiss Federation approval, quite a few private Universities in Panama - licensed but not under the oversight of University of Panama, etc. But those are not propio degrees. They are - in US terms - just plain degrees from legally-licensed but unaccredited schools. "Degree-looking papers," to quote an old-time poster who left this forum years ago.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    If you want a propio taught in English, quite a few Spanish /Latin American schools offer programs, as we've discussed. But as far as I know, no English-speaking country has higher education laws that permit this concept in its own schools.
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    This is so stunningly over-generalized as to be completely false. People's circumstances vary, people's goals vary. Not everyone can count on "40 years" of professional life to get usage out of a degree. Eg. I did Master's in Accountancy through ACCA/UoL scheme; long, painful, and "nontraditional" - to save money. Given the very contrived scenario where I may have used such degree, I could not justify taking more money from my family. I'm glad I did, because it now seems I'll likely never use it (and my employer did pay for a chunk of it BY MISTAKE lol).

    I can see many cases where a non-mill MBA for $250 could be justified, while $20K one is not. This is not a degree-buying situation, forpetessake.
    Garp and Johann like this.
  19. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    To my understanding, the value of UCN in UCN/Azteca universe is that it's degrees are not propio - or rather, this distinction doesn't exist in Nicaragua. Recognized universities there have the right to issue any and all degrees they see fit, and they are all equally valid. Azteca has an approval to grant 1 doctorate - in Education - so all the other ones are propio, and that's why they market Azteca/UCN dual programs.

    The problem with Azteca/UCN degrees is that it is not clear whether the main schools properly supervise what their European franchise is doing. In UCN's case, at least the website of the main body (with campus and medical school) contain some information on the European/English-language stuff, so the relationship at least exist.

    I have a bad feeling about San Juan de la Cruz University. The websites I can find online look like Potemkin villages, or one of John Kersey's principalities (His Serene Highness himself has a San Juan de la Cruz University Doctorate). It's quite possible the school has collapsed, and all that's left is an online hustle to cash out it's CONESUP listing. Faculty list includes Dr. Robert Ray Hill and Dr. Stephen R. Barnhart - I seem to recall they were involved in umm... questionable pursuits. I would avoid.
    Johann likes this.
  20. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Very good point. A legal MBA or Human Resource Masters from a recognized Spanish school may be beneficial for career edge or just personal knowledge and save you thousands.

    The question has come up about whether it is simply validated by Universidad Isabel but I believe someone on Degreeforum said he was able to access the Isabel site and verify his degree on their site (graduation).
    Filmmaker2Be likes this.

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