Looming slaughter in Gaza

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by nosborne48, Oct 10, 2023.

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  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Speaking as a lawyer with an interest in jurisprudence, I think some judicial reform is necessary but the way the government has gone about it makes it look like what it is, a power grab to eliminate the legal protections the secular majority have had against the rabbis.
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    For a very long time I accepted the image of Israel as a U.S-friendly ally besieged on all sides by countries wanting to wipe it out as a state and empty it of the Jews. I think that was pretty accurate and persists to a lesser extent today. When they won the 6-Day War, it made sense to seize territory...as a buffer. But....

    The power balance has shifted tremendously. And they didn't use it as a buffer. They made peace with Egypt and returned the Sinai. But they settled the Golan Heights and the West Bank. That's not a sign of a temporary seizure while things get sorted out. That's a sign of permanent occupation--annexation, actually. And so much for the need of "buffer" territory, moving your people closer to the threat than they were before.

    Israel has the power--and has for a very long time--to enforce it's vision of the region. If it wanted a two-state solution, it could have one and still maintain its security. If it wanted a 1-state solution, it could have one, incorporating those areas (including Gaza) and giving full citizenship rights to all occupants. Instead, it has created what we have today.

    Did they cause Hamas to do what Hamas did? Not directly. Hamas is responsible for its actions and should be held to account. But the underlying conditions? Sorry, but that's on the occupying power, and that power is Israel.

    Today, Israeli authorities have called for the migration of more than a million Palestinians south, clearing the way for Israel to confront Hamas militarily. Israel means to destroy a part of Gaza. Hamas has called for resistance, and Israel has said, "Oh, well, I guess those people are gonna die and it's on Hamas for urging them to stay." This is going to get a lot worse. History will not be kind to the Israelis. (Nor will it be kind to Hamas, but we always knew that.)
     
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  3. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Israel is not plotting to destroy or occupy any Arab country.
    It's some Arab countries that plot and plqn to destroy Israel.
    As such Israel is mostly defensive, waiting so to say for the attack.
    In 1967 they were proactive and had some success.
    Yest failed in 1973 and after.
    Hezbolla and Hamas must be defeated.
    If Israel to survive.
     
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  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Except the one it currently occupies.
     
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  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes. It's going to get a lot worse.
     
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure whether Arab Palestine is a "nation" in the legal sense. I'm even less sure Gaza was "occupied". What Gaza was for sure was blockaded and if Gaza did count as a nation state, that's an act of war. Not just by Israel, remember. Egypt also closed its border with Gaza.

    Now that's something I really don't understand by the way. At some point, the Strip was Egyptian territory. Not only is that not the case now, Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza or its inhabitants.

    When Americans like me think of the non Jewish population of the Middle East, we tend to think of "Arabs" as a single amorphous blob, all the same. That's nonsense and if it were true, Israel would long ago have ceased to exist. But I had thought that Gaza has historical connections to Egypt and that Egypt could reasonably fold Gaza into itself.

    Apparently not.
     
  7. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    While I have much to learn, I know this: Egypt is concerned that the Palestinians, most of whom had nothing to do with the election of Hamas 17 years ago (the average Gazan today being only 18), would be militant or violent. Whether that's the case or not, I can't say. The other reason they chafe at the idea of annexing or assuming the strip is because Hamas began as the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Brotherhood was violently cracked down on in Egypt by the current President al-Sisi (going as far as to say they will "not exist" under his reign), which means the threat of assassination or terrorism directed at him is high.

    I suspect that Palestinians also reject the idea of becoming part of Egypt because it takes them further from their goal of independence.
     
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  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Palestinian Arabs are not Egyptians. QED
     
  9. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Arabs in this lands mostly migrants from Arab countries that came there for work.
    For example:

    Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt. His father, Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, was an Arab from Gaza City, whose mother, Yasser's paternal grandmother, was Egyptian. Arafat's father battled in the Egyptian courts for 25 years to claim family land in Egypt as part of his inheritance but was unsuccessful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    There was no cruelty of occupiers, there was hope of good relations.
    Look at Israeli Arabs who are Judges, Teachers, Business owners, laborers, Doctors, politicians etc.
    Same can be for Arabs in post 1967 territories. I remeber time when Jews could take a bus to Jenin and buy materials, and construction workers from there worked all over Israel.
    But radical leaders didn't want to coexist
    whit Jews, they were under Jordan or others and were mistreated.
    PLO with support of Russia, Syria, Iraq etc hurt the people more to the degree that Israel had no choice but to enhance control.
    If anything Israel was the nicest (except some radicals)
    But Arab hostile nations used the Arabs in this area to attack Israel.
    So things got worse over the time.
     
  11. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Just saw a press conference with Sec. Blinken and the Qatar dictator. It happens that Hamas leadership lives in Qatar I hear, not Gaza which their machinations turned into a hellish war zone. Anyway, the Qataris are working with the U.S to gain a cease fire. Please God let it be so.
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I am so afraid that the Israelis are shifting into vengeance mode. It's easy to understand, very easy, but more killing will not bring back the dead.
     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No, but it might prevent the future dead. I think Israel's had about enough. (I'm not agreeing with it; I'm assessing it.)
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Looking at past wars against ISIS, or WW2, the allies leveled cities, bommed until enemy capitulated or was destroyed.
    Israeli wars always ended with ceasefire etc.
    No body wants civilian deaths, Israel warns and asks to evacuate, and already destroying underground bunkers and tunnels. Some new intelligence is gathered from captured Hamas terrorists.
    As to Hamas leadership, even if killed they replace the leaders, new ones will emerge. Their turn will come.
    The focus is on underground and other infrastructure in Gaza to destroy rocket making, storring, operating facilities. Many are operating from under schools and hospitals, shielded by civilians.
    Also retrieval and exchange of hostages.
    Israel refuses to return to pre massacre attack state of affairs.
    Israeli cities are under rocket fire from Gaza as I type.
    Also Israel exchanged fire with Hezbollah in the North.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes, Lerner, but it may amount to genocide.

    The U.S. got its two major genocides more or less completed by about 1900. It was horrific back then and we're still living with the consequences. But it isn't the 19th century anymore.
     
  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Oh, lovely. Netanyahu now claims that the IDF has uncovered documents showing that Hamas deliberately targeted elementary schools.

    So far, Israel's claims have generally held up under scrutiny. We will see if this one does as well.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    What is the Israeli end game? This war cannot continue for long. What does Israel have in mind? I shudder at the thought but the obvious goal would be to drive the Gazans out and kill those who do not or cannot leave. I don't think the rest of the Arab world would permit that. But the rhetoric from Israeli leadership is deliberately dehumanizing Palestinian Arabs and that's a very bad sign.
     
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The other possibility would be to destroy Hamas and hand the Strip over to Abbas to govern, backed by Israeli force. Abbas is foolish enough, and sufficiently corrupt, to accommodate Israeli demands until, inevitably, someone kills him.
     
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi reaffirms the cabinet’s war goal is remove Hamas from military and political control over the Gaza Strip, but declines to elaborate on planned next steps for the coastal enclave.
    Israel gave Gazans warning of 24 hours and extended it to 48 hours.
    How match warning Hamas gave Israel not even 24 seconds.
    This land dispute is old and each side has their own truth.
    Regular people always pay the price.
    FM of Iran made visits to Iraq, Lebanon and made statement that Hisballa if acts will be a major "earthquake" for Israel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    That's probably why we have a carrier task force off the coast.
     

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