Looming slaughter in Gaza

I don't actually disagree. But Hamas cannot continue in power. It is a terrorist client of Tehran. There can be no peace with one side sworn to make war.

 

Both sides are conducting war.

Gaza is not a sovereign nation, no matter what some entities say. It is occupied territory, and has been for decades. Even though troops have been removed, the territory remains under persistent siege, where the occupier controls who enters and leaves the territory, its water, its food, its imports, even its electricity.

Hamas is conducting an asymmetric war against Israel, using Gaza as a base and its people as shields.

As long as Gaza (and the West Bank) remain part of Israel, groups like Hamas are Israel's problem. And this was their failure.

No one should excuse the atrocities being committed by Hamas. But the root cause is the continued occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Israel had a right to defend itself, and I'd listen to a related argument regarding the Golan Heights. But Gaza and the West Bank? Those should have been returned or turned loose a very long time ago--unilaterally.

 

Hamas was never willing to give up on its crazy quest to kill every Israeli Jew. There would have been no peace even without the occupation.

 

Hamas are Terrorists, blood tirsty and should be destroyed.
But they also have sleeper cells in Canada and the US that will join Unit 910 of Hezbollah.
Reports of Hezbollah activity in North America are not new, though such reporting tends to focus on the group’s fundraising, money laundering, procurement, or other logistical activities from Vancouver to Miami. But in 2019, the criminal prosecution and conviction in New York of the Hezbollah operative Ali Kourani revealed disturbing new information about the extent of Hezbollah’s operations and activities in the United States and Canada.

 

Arabs in that land are tribal people, they are loyal to their clan.
So Arabs from Hebron are not welcome in Gaza. When Hamas took over Gaza they threw from windows PA operatives.
This land may do better as Emerites, 6 Emerites may have a chance.
As tribal people, they have their own leaders with history of their ancestors. According to Dr Keidar, they prefer creation of multiple emirates for the Palestinians, The emirates may include: Hebron, Jericho, Ramallah, Tulkarem, Qalqila, Nablus, Jenin, Gaza(no Hamas)
Many are much more loyal to the tribe, ethnic, religious or sectarian group than to the state in which they are citizens.Yet states try to impose state law and the state mindset on a people who are loyal to a different framework and a different set of rules, laws, traditions, and habits. Some neighboring states the enemy of the majority of the citizens because they don’t belong to the same group which took the country by force. (Syria) But we see successful states (Kuwait, Qatar and the seven Emirates of the gulf). These countries are stable, rich, and life there is heavenly. Not because of oil. Those states are mostly based on single tribe. Palestinians are tribal people If you establish one state with all of them together, this state may end up like Syria, Iraq or Libya. If you follow the Emirates example, they may become like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, etc.—internally successful and externally peaceful. And join Abraham accords.
This may put an end to war.

 

My previous post represented my view before the horrible massacre by Hamas of civilians, children, elders, woman, any one on their way on last Saturday.
Israel had colossal failure and questions will be asked after the war.
If Hizbolla attacks Israel, there is a strong possibility that Israel will use a tactical Judgement Day veapon in Lebanon.
Israel can't take 200,000 missiles hitting it from Lebanon.

 

I believe you, Lerner, and it won't have to be nuclear.

 

You raise an important point that people frequently seem to miss.

Israel deserves the right to exist. Jewish people certainly deserve the right to exist!

Palestine and Palestinians also deserve the right to exist. The exact territorial boundaries will always be sticky, but a two-state solution is the most popular and I suspect most reasonable people agree on those points.

Where the issue comes in, then, is that the governments or spokespeople for the Palestinian cause frequently insist that Israel and Jewish people not be allowed to exist. Hamas' original charter discusses the killing of all Jewish people and the dissolution of Israel. (That language was softened in 2017 along with the hypothetical acceptance of a Palestinian state with pre-1967 borders but since it wasn't accompanied by a change in Hamas' terrorist tactics, Israel maintains it was a change in window dressing only.)

None of the actions of Hamas make the killing of civilian Palestinians right or the existence of Palestine as a state wrong. Hamas is 30,000 people and 74 legislators representing 2 million people, many of whom do not share their murderous views.

At the same time, Israel has been engaged in a long-standing occupation in violation of international law and human rights. That doesn't make killing Jewish people right. It doesn't make the existence of Israel wrong.

Too many people who insist that Americans are not the US government and that the Chinese are not the Chinese government are more than willing to look past the governments of Israel and Palestine on their way to exterminating the population of the other.

I grieve the civilian deaths on both sides. Hamas is undeniably a terror group. At the same time, the existence of a terror group does not invalidate Palestinian claims to a place of their own, any more than the Israeli government's violation of international law does not invalidate the right of Israelis to a state of their own.

I don't think this will be solved in our lifetime because those who have the power to fix it are holding on to their grudges. I do think that both sides learning more about the other would go a long way.

Of course, I say this all from rural Iowa where I'm insulated from the beliefs and actions of all in the conflict.

 

Don't confuse Hamas with the Palestinian Authority. I don't believe even any window dressing came from the former.

 

This is a non-sequitor. Who is it at directed at?

 

Hamas never softened its stance.

 

Fox News says the IDF found forty dead babies, some beheaded, in the wake of a Hamas attack. I hope it is just propaganda but if it is true the results will be beyond horrific.

 

Meanwhile the UN remains paralyzed and worthless. As always.

 

The IDF is fully capable of leveling Gaza City and killing everyone within its borders. I am terrified that they might decide to do exactly that especially since, this time around, no one is saying Stop!

 

Palestine is an area called so by Roman's as revenge for Jewish uprising some 2000 years ago.
This area had many occupiers, kingdoms, empires.
But there was never a country called Palestine.
Yes Arabs migrated to that land in different times and settled there.
Take Arafat he was Egyptian in origin on one side and even sued in Egyptian court to gain estate of his grandmother.
Hamas is highly trained army that learned how to use minimal tools to oppose highly trained Israeli army.
I mean a small drone with a grenade took out a Mercaba tank.
If Israel pulled out completely from Gaza and they had Air Force and navy then the situation for Israel would have been even worse.
They want destruction of Israel, period.

 

I don't understand why the international community isn't doing anything at all to stop this war.

Well, I think I do understand. I'm just too appalled at the cynicism to accept it. The world wants to be rid of Hamas and Gaza isn't their problem.

It's the coldest blooded example of realpolitik I've ever seen.

 

The strangest thing is that there's no apparent tendency toward a wider war. For this we should be grateful.

 

Small ray of light. The U.S. is talking with Egypt and Israel to set up escape routes for Gazan civilians. It will be a long line but there will be a way out.

 

Hamas did soften their stance in the charter: they changed references from killing all Jewish people to dissolving Israel alone, explicitly included language that separated Jewish people from the State of Israel, and supported a two-state solution where they previously did not. I'm not saying I support the charter or its contents, it's still full of awful things. Hamas is still a terror group.

My point was that the existence of Hamas does not justify the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians any more than the existence of Israel justifies the indiscriminate killing of Jewish people or Israelis, it does not. People seem to acknowledge that in theory but then go on to cheer the killing of the people they like less.

 

War really is hell. This kind of all-out war is undiluted hell. Lots of people get killed, some indiscriminately and many deliberately including the most innocent, the children.

It's going to get much worse from here. Netanyahu told Biden that there will be a ground invasion to crush Hamas forever. Biden, according to the Times of Israel, offered no objection.