Immigration Reform

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Robert_555, Dec 8, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It's what it is on the two-side fly, my man!

    I get tired of non-Americans or non-residents being so critical of our nation, that's all. However, I meant no disrespect at all. I actually agree somewhat with JLV on some points he made.

    Until 9/11, I strongly supported open borders. I am sure had some type of situation occurred during the '20's and '30's, America's borders would have been so open.

    Don't think for one moment if Japan or Germany bordered the U.S., that Roosevelt wouldn't have restricted immigration and enacted some type of Patriot Act. He set up the interment camps, after all.
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    One Sixth of the World?

    That "Native American" thing has had a good political run but is losing breath. We just don't know which peoples were here or who slaughtered who for regional dominance in pre-Columbian times.

    I suppose you're right, but you can take the Native American part out of it and it's effectively still the same statement.

    Sorry Steve but that is standard libertarian cant and is, IMO, as narrow-minded as the zero-sum, socialista caca. I once posed a, IMO, quite realistic scenario to an anarchocap type. I said that the US simply opening its borders would, over perhaps a decade, result in an additional billion people coming here with tens of millions dying in the attempt.

    Quite realistic? Where did you get the figure that a billion people -- one sixth of the world! -- would try to come to the U.S. were the borders opened up?

    Her response to that? "I am not their mother." These ultra-libertarians consider themselves to be the most moral of people but I consider them to be our version of Stalinists.

    Your friend and I have different positions. Besides, Stalinists killed millions of people (on purpose!) and told everyone else what to do. Libertarians don't want to kill anyone or tell anyone what to do. You'll forgive me if I don't agree with the comparison. :)

    Moreover, your friend shouldn't have accepted that scenario at face value. If the borders were open, people wouldn't have to sneak in by crossing deserts on foot or drifting in on rafts. They could just take a bus or a plane or a boat. Thus, fewer people would be killed coming here even if more were coming here in general.

    If the US simply opened its borders, other governments would round up their "surplus" populations and ship them here.

    Why do you think so? Totalitarian governments have historically spent a lot of effort keeping people in rather than kicking them out.

    And "coyote" type entrepeneurs would lure untold millions more with lies and hazardous transport.

    No, this is what they do now because it's illegal!

    The US would be swamped with people who would make the skirmishes of the early 20th Century look like a picnic. Martial law and some form of socialism/fascism would be our future. And as we went so would go the world. No expatriating to some idyllic redoubt like Costa Rica.

    Please feel free at any time to back up these apocalyptic claims with some kind of solid reasoning or historical example.

    Am I saying that new immigrant groups are different from the old? Not at all. Much of our socialist drift has been due to those past waves of immigration.

    How so? The U.S. has absorbed far more immigrants than many places that are dramtically more socialistic than it is.

  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Should have said "...wouldn't have been so open...."
  4. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Abner, thanks for your kind (and undeserved) words. You´re truly a gentleman. I have been here for almost 5 years, longer than most, and feel at home really, but your warm welcome is very appreciated, my friend.

    Miguel, I am sure if the States would be somehow aiding Mexico with some type of structural or cohesion funds (to help it catch up), illegal immigration eventually would cease to be a problem. Restrictive laws, walls, canyons, etc,... are useless when one is hungry and has kids hungry at home. Wouldn´t we all migrate to be able provide for our families? Let´s be a bit humane, and considerate.

    Jimmy, I simply pointed out the reasons for immigration. Everyone seems to have understood them, but you, who thought they were critical to your nation :confused: I think you are a little bit too sensitive, but as I said yesterday, it´s no problem. You weren´t really disrespectful. Regards to all
  5. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Re: One Sixth of the World?

    An estimate I think not at all out of the question given the state of the world. Five of the six billion people in the world are living in conditions of our Depression era, or worse.

    There is no straw in my argument. Not Russian Stalinists but US Stalinists. Those influential twits who blinded themselves to the murders. The self-styled intelligentsia who saw not the totalitarian control and the mountains of dead but only the theoretical promiseland.

    Theoretical, like the world of the ultra-libertarians. The ones who would invent a history of libertarian Celts and Icelandic utopias as basis for their dreams.

    Are you sure you've looked into the history of US immigrants? People who gave up all they had to board hellish ships because they were told jobs went begging here?

    Cuba? The China that offered Jimmy Carter ten million to shut down his humanitarian palaver?

    The governments needn't be totalitarian to take an opportunity to dump people they have no use for and which might cause unrest. Not Mexico or any other Latin American country is doing much to prevent their desperate from trekking here.

    Great Depression - FDR - near nationalization of the economy. Triple the number of unemployed and the number of "Hoovervilles" to be policed and you should have the picture.

    Any they absorbed the US. They elected their representatives and changed everything. My ancestors. In particular, my Italian and Irish ancestors changed the Northeast and the US. Tammany Hall. Fiorello LaGuardia. Just look at the Senators and Congressmen they sent, and continue to send, to Washington. Look at how those people changed the country.
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I understand immigration fine. My mother and I were born in Germany. I lived in New Orleans for 12 year and went to school with people from Puerto Rico, Honduras, Mexico, Italy, Spain, and other countries.

    I have no problem with immigration. I am opposed to illegal immigration but support helping illegals who have lived here for some time, work hard, pay their bills, pay their taxes, educate their children, and love this country, plain and simple.
  7. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    OK, Jimmy, so we basically agree. I still fail to see the criticism to your nation, but OK. Let´s just forget it.
  8. lspahn

    lspahn New Member

    I am almost always against rewarding anyone for commiting a crime, in this case coming illegally, BUT there is a reality on the ground that has to be delt with, and unfortunatly that always transcends anyones ideology.

    But, What if about cases of our lovely INS who has a history of screwing things up. What do you do with a guy who has jumped through all the hoops and INS drops the ball. Is he illegal or not? By the law he is, but he did his part, we didnt do our. Thats where is get complicated. This may be a similiar situation that JLV has had to endure...
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yea, we can forget it. Human beings are more important than ideology anyway.

    Nice to have made a new Internet friend. Take care!
  10. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Lou, I am afraid I didn’t explain myself properly. I apologize about it. I went to America with an F-1 visa, a student visa. In order to get that type of visa, one must have all the funds necessary to study at an American university PRIOR to enter the states. When I finished school back home, I wanted to do something different, so I worked my balls off, and with all the money I saved plus some help from my parents, I went to America. I paid for my entire undergraduate education and room board etc…. I got no scholarship, no grants, no loans, no nothing. On top of that I paid out of state tuition. I worked in America but authorized. The INS gave me very EASILY a working permit (not a green card). They knew I had no intentions to stay. Whn I though it was enough, I returned to Europe, completely broke, but with a degree in engineering in my pocket that has opened doors for me everywhere I went. I wasn’t an immigrant in America. I never had bad experiences with American officials, really. I have never been arrested by the INS, police or any other US authority. On the contrary, I have to admit it, I was treated quite well. Well, by most of them……. I wasn’t referring to my own experience when I decided to participate in this thread. I was thinking of people who have terrible needs and who are just only a few kilometers, a few meters away from the US fortress. I think it is human to try to cross the river when hunger hits furiously all your senses, and when the cry of your baby blinds you and induces you to head the only possible direction, the North.

    The solution for me is not to open the borders, nor those restrictive, punctilious laws, the walls, or the canyons. The only solution is to strengthen the economy of those people exporting countries like Mexico. In general people prefer to live with their relatives and friends. Has any of you seen Louis Malle´s “And the Pursuit of Happiness”?
  11. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    A big hug, Jimmy, from this side of the pond.
  12. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Ding, ding ding - we have a winnah! The problem is where it is and not where it's going.

    But the problem left is that 'we' can't strengthen other economies. Only the people within those economies can do so.
  13. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Such RELIEF!

    Hey, J.C!

    You decided to have some pity on my poor molars then?
  14. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    No, I disagree. Look at the EU, and the marvelous results of external aid in countries like Spain or Ireland. The US already "fixed" Europe 60 years ago with that Plan Marshall. Why not something similar with Mexico under the umbrella of NAFTA? If the US puts money and its knowledge, Mexico could be a much more developed nation in less than one generation and cease to be a problem for the US. On the contrary, it would be an asset. How bad wants the US that illegal emigration to stop?
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This very discussion shows how complicated national and international issues are. We all have tendencies to simplify these issues and attack presidents and world leaders too cavalierly.

    Take the global infrastructure of terrorism for instance. We can attack the Patriot Act, condemn the shooting of a "bipolar" man on a plane, attack Bush, etc.

    However, life is not so simple and none of us really understands the complexities of such issues no matter how we try to convey we do--we just don't.

    The nation and the world are complex, complicated, and too intense to think in sophomoric terms.
  16. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Even mainstream economists are beginning to understand the negative effect of the New Deal so maybe they'll come to realize the shortcomings of the Marshall Plan.
  17. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Decimon, I am not sure we understand each other. The New Deal or any other American policy admits discussion, and is subject to debate. If those reputed economists say so, who am I to say the opposite? However, I am talking about something else, the Marshall Plan, whose results admit little doubt. If you doubt it really worked, rent a car and drive through Europe (I am sure you’ve already done it). Four hundred fifty million Europeans enjoy the outcome of that plan. The same could take place in Mexico. The US *could* revitalize Mexican economy by injecting structural funds aimed to reduce or eliminate poverty, unemployment, etc... Doesn’t the IMF, for instance, do it already? The US could decide where to invest that money, probably in infrastructures. I am sure eventually immigration would decrease noticeably. But still, I wonder if the US has the political will to strengthen Mexico or if it prefers a weak state at the south.

    Note: Please, don’t forget the insulting, annoying insistence of any US administration to accept Turkey in the EU and pay all the costs of its integration. Why doesn’t the US do the same it reaches with Mexico? After all Mexicans don’t blow themselves in trains and subways, and there is some cultural affinity. Turks... well, who knows? I guess we all could do something more than complaining. Regards.
  18. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    It's been pointed out that the countries receiving the least of Marshall Plan monies were the ones to most quickly recover.

    Mexico's economy depends on monies sent home by US resident Mexicans, that despised Mexican minority known as Indio. Mexican economic problems are Mexican in origin.
  19. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Certainly you're not suggesting that we praise the act of shooting bipolar individuals on planes. Are you, Jimmy?
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't supporting shooting anyone unless in self-defense. It's interesting, every single passenger on that plane felt the air marshalls did what had to be done.

    Those who were not on the plane, whose lives were not in possible danger, felt they acted immorally.

    Let me ask you this: If someone were in front of you, and they said they had a bomb and were reaching for it to detonate and you had a gun, what would you do not knowing the individual had a mental illiness diagnosis?

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